Why is this period so completely ignored?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Well dog gone, I have been floundering around the edge of this topic for a couple months and then stumbled on this today.  I am a part of a 4 person dog and pony show that could not find a home.

We are interested in this very time period.  We are a poor lot made up of poor folks that can not afford 4 guns each.  We are not big on cartridge as we came from the fur trade era.  Now saying that, I am a member of NCOWS and we are all members of GAF. 

For our own we shoot targets for accuracy under different times and conditions.  We shoot long distance with front stuffers and closer with revolver.  We are civilian scouts, Indian Police and general ruffians of the Indian Territory.  A period that would cover the 1820 - 1865.  Would sure be easy for us to narrow this down to 1840 - 1860.

Count us in on the interest list:  The American Plainsman Society or any other name you choose.  We are the "Cherokee Light Horse" Company C  (for California)

[Caleb Hobbs]

I was wondering how many folks are interested in actually pursuing this. If there are enough, I'd like to see it move forward. You can respond here or drop me a PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks,
Caleb.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I was wondering how many folks are interested in actually pursuing this. If there are enough, I'd like to see it move forward. You can respond here or drop me a PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks,
Caleb.

4 folks from the Cherokee Lighthorse Company C.  Very interested.

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!

I'm very interested in that era. My pard was thinking about doing some mountain man stuff awhile back, so I bought a Hawken rifle and got some other gear together. I eventually realized my outfit was really more from the early 1840s at the earliest, and I actually prefer gear from a little later on (like revolvers!).  I've been doing Frontiersman in CAS competitions the last few months striving for an early 1860's Texas Ranger look.  I could easily go back a decade or so and use that Hawken, and some earlier BP revolvers. 
Kinda funny when you think about where SASS is going; they're inching foward into the 20th century with their Wild Bunch stuff, and I'm heading further back...

[Caleb Hobbs]

Sacramento:

It seems like we all migrate to some degree. I started out in Indiana as a 1790s long hunter, then moved West and switched to the mountain man era. Now I'm more interested in the Plainsman era, although admittedly a little later than what we're talking about here. More of a late 1860s, early 1870s hunter/Indian trader/army scout persona, although I've still got most of the gear I'd need to go earlier. If we bumped this up to 1865, I'd be able to use my Remington percussions, although that might open up another can of worms with long guns like the Henry and Spencer.

TwoWalks, thanks for the reply. I've sent out a couple of emails to others who have expressed an interest in this. I guess now we'll shake the blanket and see what falls out.

Caleb

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Sacramento:

It seems like we all migrate to some degree. I started out in Indiana as a 1790s long hunter, then moved West and switched to the mountain man era. Now I'm more interested in the Plainsman era, although admittedly a little later than what we're talking about here. More of a late 1860s, early 1870s hunter/Indian trader/army scout persona, although I've still got most of the gear I'd need to go earlier. If we bumped this up to 1865, I'd be able to use my Remington percussions, although that might open up another can of worms with long guns like the Henry and Spencer.

TwoWalks, thanks for the reply. I've sent out a couple of emails to others who have expressed an interest in this. I guess now we'll shake the blanket and see what falls out.

Caleb

Caleb, the time frame up to and including 1865 and even beyond would still fit what you are looking at.  There were a lot of folks that fit into the hunter/Indian trader, army scout persona's that would have carried a muzzle loader and Remington or Colt percussion pistols. 

The actual shooting aspect will always be small club related.  The larger type organization could very well be based the same as GAF, more of an online presence for the majority of people.  It is like our small group, we like the idea of muzzle loaders and paper cartridge sharps with little interest in metallic cartridges.  The rifle move us out of GAF and the Revolvers take us out of the buck-skinning groups.  Meeting in the middle would be the plainsman idea you have.  Just thinking out-load through my finger tips. 

[Drayton Calhoun]

Interested here also! Just as long as nobody tries to 'short stroke' a Hawken or Wesson rifle, we should be fine!

[Jake MacReedy]

Hey Sacramento!  How d'ya like that Beaver Bill tomahawk I sold to ya?  Well, fellers...and gal!...I'm back in lovely Iraq for a while again!  Sounds like we do have a fair amount of interest here!  I do like the idea of extending the period we're discussing up through 1865.  I wouldn't mind seeing a Henry rifle!  I'm still interested!

Jake

[Caleb Hobbs]

Just so everyone knows, I've got some things started on this. I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and I won't elaborate further until I have some news to share, but I did want to let everyone know that the issue isn't dead. Keep your fingers crossed.

Caleb

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy Jake!
It's a jim-dandy hawk, and you should see my attempt at making a belt sheath for it! (No one will mistake my work for a professional; if I ever get to a Mountain man shoot, I suspect I'll get some points for my 'primitive'  effort...) As for moving the time period out to 1865, that would work for me, but you're going to get more cartridge  shooters (rifle and BP pistols with conversion cylinders).

Caleb, keep us posted!

[Tsalagidave]

I do a Los Angeles impression (ca. 1852-57). I agree that this period is not really represented at all.

-Dave

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Howdy Jake!
It's a jim-dandy hawk, and you should see my attempt at making a belt sheath for it! (No one will mistake my work for a professional; if I ever get to a Mountain man shoot, I suspect I'll get some points for my 'primitive'  effort...) As for moving the time period out to 1865, that would work for me, but you're going to get more cartridge  shooters (rifle and BP pistols with conversion cylinders).

Caleb, keep us posted!

Good point, I had not thought of that.

[Tascosa Joe]

I would like to see the time stretch to '68, so you could use rolling blocks, trap doors in 50-70, and Sharps conversions. 
I dont have a Hawken anymore, it went away about 1985, but I still have my 1755-1760 Lancaster flinter though.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I would like to see the time stretch to '68, so you could use rolling blocks, trap doors in 50-70, and Sharps conversions. 
I dont have a Hawken anymore, it went away about 1985, but I still have my 1755-1760 Lancaster flinter though.

Even within a central time frame, it would appear there are preferences that include percussion as well as cartridge.  Perhaps the time frame would be easier to work if it was viewed ...

Single shot rifle
revolver
Accuracy instead of speed.

The speed advantage of cartridge would not be a factor.

Some folks have muzzle loading rifles and some have single shot rifles like the sharps and rolling blocks that only fit into groups like NCOWS as a side match rifle.

[Caleb Hobbs]

I've been thinking about something like this for a many years. To me, the Plainsmen period runs from about 1855 to the late 1870s, although I can see where that time frame might create a lot of problems in real-time application. The 1840 to 1860s period would probably work better. I was thinking maybe 1840 to 1869, which was more or less the era of the percussion ignition. I'd also like to see an emphasis on historical accuracy. No flintlocks, and no firearms produced after 1870, and all firearms must be common to the time, and to the area west of the Mississippi. Black powder (or substitute) only, even for cartridge firearms, and in order to make it as fair for single-shot pistols as it is for revolvers, not to mention enhancing the shooting area – NO TIMERS. Also no gun carts or other modern items.

What I've always envisioned was of a bunch of frontiersmen coming together in an encampment of tents and tipis somewhere on the plains and spending a few days of camaraderie and shooting matches. Kind of like what I've seen in photos and heard about in a NCOWS primitive camp. This could be done in the imagination and with postal matches for a while, but who knows what might develop down the road.

I've emailed Marshal Hollaway asking about the possibility of getting a forum dedicated to this period. I haven't heard back from him yet, but I know he's a busy man. I'll write him again today.

Let me know what you think.

[Jake MacReedy]

Actually, unless you can come up with a Lefacheaux Pinfire Revolver, or an original Cofer (or the S&W Models 1, 1 1/2 and 2 .22's and .32's), there shouldn't be any cartridge/cartridge conversion revolvers in use.  "Last Stand at Saber River" notwithstanding, I believe you would be hard-pressed to find a cartridge conversion revolver with provenance to the year 1865.  It would open the door to the Henry and Spencer rifles and carbines...and I have no problem with that!

[Caleb Hobbs]

Jake, that's what I was thinking, based largely on Mike Ventrino's books. It's one of the reasons I suggested 1869. Plus the 1865-1869 period seems to be when the Plainsmen really came into their own as scouts, hunters, and guides.

[Jake MacReedy]

I agree, Caleb!  However, B. Kittredge &Co. worked out a deal with Smith & Wesson (for the Roland White patent) and Remington to have a bunch of Remington Cartridge Conversion revolvers made up starting in 1868 (based on the New Model Army).  These were the 5-shot .46 caliber rimfire revolvers, sans loading gate and ejector.

Jake

[Caleb Hobbs]

I've read, but don't recall how reliable the sources were, that town gunsmiths were converting the Colt Army to accept the .44 Henry cartridge well before the end of the Civil War, and even more so afterward. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will step forward with the correct information.

My feeling is that if a shooter can document his firearm to before the 1869 date, it should be allowed. Of course the down side to that is the possibility of creating conflict over just what was done, and when. One way to avoid some of that would be to move the cut-off date back to 1865, as was earlier proposed. I'd like to hear what others think on this.

Thanks,
Caleb

[Sacramento Johnson]

Hi all!

I see at least 4 classes if you go 1840-1869:
1. cartridge revolver and cartridge repeating rifle
2. Cap and ball revolver and cartridge repeating rifle
3. Cap and ball revolver and single shot rifle  (could sub divide this further depending on whether the rifle is percussion or cartridge)
4. Single shot pistol and single shot rifle (both percussion)

I think if you go to 1869 you're going to get alot of BP pistols with drop in cartridge cylinders.  You'll also get 1866 Winchesters as well as the already mentioned Henrys and Spencers. I suspect this would also be the biggest class (class 1), (and it does overlap with what SASS and NCOWS already offer/allow). This might not be the way to go if you want the focus to be on the earlier part of this time span. It might be better to go with 1840-1860 or 1865, and limit the hand guns to cap and ball revolvers (classes 2 and 3).  That seems to really set this era apart from what preceedes it and what follows it, in terms of firearms.  (Class 4 is already done by Mountain man clubs.) 
I don't have a problem with timers; as it would be a competition.  Agree; gun carts don't fit if you want the participants to look the era.
Just some thoughts...