Sneek preview. . . . . new EPP-UG-36

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy 36 Caliber C&B shooters.

Here's a peek at what I've been working on for you Colt and Remington Navy shooters.  It's been a long time in the berthing, but it's going to happen finally.  I expect first deliveries in about a month.

It's called, appropriately, the EPP-UG-36.  The late great El Paso Pete designed the now very successful EPP-UG which will now be named the EPP-UG-45.  And now the smaller version will also carry his name.  After all, Pete showed the way.

This is a bullet that emulates round ball performance in 36 Caliber C&B pistols while bringing along all the, now well known, benefits of Big Lube®LLC design.  No longer will ANY other cookies, over ball smears or other adjuncts be needed to maintain accuracy or function in your 36 Cal C&B pistols.  Simply load lube/sized EPP-UG-36 bullets directly on your powder charge and you're good to go.  And by that I mean for an entire annual main match.

I've attached a working drawing and I invite comments here.  I'm particularly concerned about the chamber dimensions on the variety of reproduction 36 Cal C&B pistols out there.  The rebate MUST fit inside the chamber so that the bullet sits proud and straight for easy seating.  Please mike some of your chambers and report back.  I know that you need to shave lead on round balls when you seat them, but the EPP-UG-36 bullets should be lube/sized to chamber size for a nice snug interference fit and the rebate MUST fit into the chamber.  The bigger EPP-UG-45 does this very well and is very successful.  It didn't happen on the first try because the rebate was too big.  I'd like to get it right on the first try with this little bullet.

FWIW, as you can see from the drawing the bullet should drop at 91 grains.

Thanks in advance.

DD-DLoS 

[Mako]

Dick,
I think you were wise to only have one diameter on your rebated section instead of trying to do a double to accommodate only two sizes well.  Since I started working on a 130gr .36 bullet I have found that there is much more variation in chamber sizes with .36 than with .44 (if you leave ROAs out).

I have a suggestion that will help center the bullet.  Instead of the 90° shoulder at the rebate use an angle 45° or shallower.  This angle will guide the bullet into the chamber, with a 90° shoulder  it will just rest on one side of the rebate or the other and it may or may not center itself as it shears the the major diameter as it enters the bore. 

I have this on my design which I really   need to finish soon.  The problem I ran into is one you won't have, to get 130 grains with a deep lube groove it has an interference problem because of the length with some Navy frames.  I may just have to pull the trigger and realize I can't make everyone happy.  That may be what you have to do as well.

With the tapered back edge as I was describing you could make your rebate the smallest diameter you wish to accommodate and it would work.  Even though you might not have a line fit on the bore behind the driving band it wouldn't affect anything or be any different that a boat tail or even a round ball if you took it to the extreme of the analogy.

Later,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The problem I ran into is one you won't have, to get 130 grains with a deep lube groove it has an interference problem because of the length with some Navy frames...

I would venture to guess that the majority of the people who shoot conicals load the cylinder off the gun anyway so length is not really an issue for them. Of course, that is IMO.

[Dick Dastardly]

We used a dual rebate on the Big Lube ROA conical and that's worked fine.  Soon as I get some feedback on chamber diameters I'll know better how to configure the rebate on the base.  I have 50 thousandths allowed for the rebate so I could divide that between two sizes and still have a very workable bullet.  I don't like the taper/boat tail base because the bullet could be started into the chamber cocked and it could possible be deformed when it is seated.

These bullets are not intended to be loaded as dropped from the mold.  They are intended, as are the EPP-UG-45s, to be lube sized to the chamber diameter for a snug interference fit.  There should be no shaving of lead when they are seated.  This system has worked very well with the larger EPP design.

Please note that the 0.033" driving bands are quite fragile and that they drop from the mold at a very generous .381" in diameter.  This is to give enough tolerance for even a worse case scenario of oversize chambers.  Now that I think of it, I'll be testing this little pill in my 38-55 for a camp meat plinker. .

Please keep the info coming on your chamber diameters.

Many thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I don't have the gun handy to give exact dimensions, but I remember this:  My gun, which is of an unknown manufacture, but which fits using an Uberti replacement cylinder, has to have roundballs that are 0.380" rather than the usual 0.375" diameter or they will fall into the chamber without sealing.  I don't know whether the chambers were reamed out (possibly for reasons of uniformity) to a uniform diameter.  That MAY have been the case since there were extensive mods done to the gun long before I got it, including cutting a dovetail for the front sight then replacing the sight with a larger, wide square-topped blade version and then the hammer cut down and given a squared opening to match the "new" front blade.  There are other mods including cutting the original Hexagonal barrel shape to become round; matching a different barrel to the frame; (by ser. #) and working the "innards" to now feel glass-smooth and a few other items that make the gun a real delight to shoot, but which are more "shooter" related than historical mods. 

Hope this helps in a roundabout way, Dick.

[Howdy Doody]

Speaking of the DD ROAs. I messed up and went to a big match and half my bullets were EPP-UG and half DD ROAs. I had a bit of trouble getting the ROAs to stand up straight for ramming with my Tower of Power and decided to speed things up and just stick them in upside down and shoot them as a wadcutter. Yeah I could feel the difference in recoil of the 200 gr vs the 160gr, but they shot real well. In fact I liked it so much I just cast out more DD ROAs to give it another whirl. I size all the stuff for my ROAs at .454 and use my own mixed up lube.
I also shot that match with 777 and I usually shoot Goex. I had a flask with a 25gr nipple and the recoil was tame and the smoke was great. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Howdy,

The newer version of the DD-ROA is the DD/PUK/ROA-II.  It has a flat nose for use in tube magazine rifles.  It also has a dual rebate that assures easy seating and straight alignment with the chamber.  You must have one of the old original round nose DD-ROA molds.  They were good, but the new ones are better.  FWIW, that wad cutter arrangement does work well.

Please let me know the chamber sizes of any of your 36s if you have any.  This new bullet will have to fit a wider variety of C&B chamber sizes and I want to learn the range of them that are out there.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

We used a dual rebate on the Big Lube ROA conical and that's worked fine.  Soon as I get some feedback on chamber diameters I'll know better how to configure the rebate on the base.  I have 50 thousandths allowed for the rebate so I could divide that between two sizes and still have a very workable bullet.  I don't like the taper/boat tail base because the bullet could be started into the chamber cocked and it could possible be deformed when it is seated.

Many thanks,

DD-DLoS

Morning DD,
Don't fall victim to the same thing I warn the senior design students about, and that is believing the world is flat, square and everything is line to line fits.  You are looking at your drawing and assuming the bullet will seat itself aligned to the axis of the bore.  The only way that will happen is if you have a chamber that happens to be .0001" larger than the rebate on your bullet creating a tight slip fit.  Otherwise your bullet is going to push over to one wall or the other, there is nothing to align it.  

I think you misunderstood my comment.  You won't change your chosen rebate diameter it would be the same as if you chose a 90° shoulder, but you should have a tapered back end, that will assure the bullet will at least be concentric with the bore.

The reason I have abandoned the two step rebate for the 130 gr bullet is because I want it to fit the maximum possible Navy models with the small opening in the barrel lug 'a la the 1851, Leech & Rigdon models, etc.  The 1861 has no problem, you could put anything under that ram. If I have the two steps the smaller chamber pistols will have even less clearance because the bullet won't go in as deep, I may even have to allow it to tip as it is rotated underneath to allow the maximum number of fits.  It's amazing the difference 5-10 grains makes on the bullet.

I have had emails from two people telling me there are already 130 grain bullets and they fit.  Buffalo has one and the Lee bullet, I pointed out to them they have shallow or basically nonexistent grooves and that adding a deep groove large enough to be called a Big Lube® makes the bullet significantly longer relative to the ones they have seen.  I have had to play games with the ogive and ratios and it is on the ragged edge.  I could go lighter, but what is the point? It needs to be the heaviest possible and still meet the needs of the maximum number of shooters.

Now you and I won't have a problem l;oading any of our bullets because we already know the joys of loading off of the frame.  My design is finished if that were the case.  One of the reasons I have been stalled a bit is that I am waiting for a friend to cycle back from deployment.  He has several Piettas and a couple of other older non-Ubertis that he says have tight chambers and a Ø.375 is "hard" to seat.  I've tried to talk his wife into getting them out and sending them to me, but I can't blame her that she's nervous about getting into his guns while he's gone even though he's told her she can send them.  I don't think she needs any more stress than she's already under so I will wait 6 more weeks.

DD, think about the geometry I'm talking about, we're not talking about a huge step and adding an angle will center it while a flat shoulder won't.

Your friend,
Mako

[hellgate]

DD,
Here's some dimensions on some old ones of mine:
Uberti 1861 Navy vintage 1969 (XXV) chambers mike at .373-.374"
Euroarms "1858" Navy Remington vintage 1972 (XX8) chambers are .370"
Euroarms "1858" Navy Remington vintage 1973 (XX9) chambers also .370"

[The Elderly Kid]

DD,
In a '51 Navy, how big a charge can you get under it and still have it seat below the cylinder face?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Elderly Kid,

If you take a good gander at the drawing, you will learn that the length of the little bullet is near the same as it's girth.  In other words, it emulates round a round ball in volume, charge and seating.  So, I would ask you, how much powder can you get under a round ball in your 51?  That's about the same amount you can get under the little EPP-UG-36.  This new bullet isn't supposed to be a magic pill that has ultra velocity or knockdown power.  What it does is emulate round ball performance but carry all it's own lube.  What that means is that when the bullet is lube/sized to chamber dimensions it makes a nice snug interference fit and the lube is captive in the lube grove.  This means that, unlike over ball lube smear, the lube doesn't get blown away.  It's held captive till the chamber is fired.  Then, it releases it's lube when it does the most good.

Now, I would ask you Elderly Kid, what are the chamber sizes of your guns?  This is what this thread is all about.  Your input is valued.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

DD,
Here are the ones I have for your calculations.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cylinder%20Measurements/36CaliberChamberDims.png

Regards,
Mako

[Howdy Doody]

DD. I do have the ROA mold that is round nose. I can see I am going to have to call you up real soon and try the new style ones out. I am sort of liking the 777 and the 200gr bullet. They zing right out there, but the recoil isn't bad at all. The fast is, I am starting to like recoil that will give me a little muzzle flip verses and push back type. I find it helps me grab the hammer with my thumb and lower down onto target. I am always experimenting, but this is how I am shooting right now.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thank you Mako!

That's exactly what I was looking for.  Yes, they do run all over the place.  I really appreciate your doing this.  No.  I really really appreciate your doing this.

Howdy Howdy,

I think you will really like the new DD/PUK/ROA-II design.  It sits straight up and it seats easier.  Also, it has proven even more versatile than the original DD-ROA with the flat nose and twin rebate.  FWIW, Colt 1911s really run well with it.  Pukin Dog is writing an article on shooting the DD/PUK/ROA-II from his 1911s.  He claims great accuracy with both genuine Holy Black and heathen fad smokeyless powder and this bullet in 45 ACP cases.  I'm loading it in 45 Colt and Cowboy 45 Special brass with great results.

DD-DLoS

[Capt. JEB Forrest]

my unmarked '51 is .369-.370

[Dick Dastardly]

All of this is good.  So far my drawing handles all the dimensions given.  No need to modify, yet.

DD-DLoS

[Deadeye Dick]

DD,
Is your website down?
Deadeye Dick

[rebsr52339]

Dick, I have a Uberti 51 made in 2008 and the chambers range between .373 and .374.

My Pietta 1861 made in 2005 with two extra cylinders is:

Cyl #1  .366 to .368
Cyl #2  .367 to .368
Cyl #3  .368 to .370

Hope it helps.   

[Adirondack Jack]

Ever notice how independent inventors come up with the same concept again and again?

DDI may have mentioned to ya this crude mold I made about 15 years ago.  It's a HB version of the .36 Conical bullet I ran in a '61 Navy to good effect.  I didn't have a chrony back then, but I got em to "crack" smartly and mushroom into a perfect mushroom cap when shot into green 1" pine rough lumber when loaded on top a compressed load of FFF with no wad.

Here's the mold and a wax "proof" bullet cast from it.:



My kit was so primative at the time, the mold center pin also served as a driving punch to size the bullets using a 5/8" thick brass plate with a .375 hole in it......

I expect yer "mini" EPP is gonna do nicely, even with a solid base.....

[Dick Dastardly]

My web site has been up and down and up again.  My webmaster had to move and we lost some exposure time.  Should be working now.  I've been fishing up North in Canada.  Fishing was great.  Boated one Northern Pike that was over 40".

DD-DLoS