riddle me this... 2f versus 3f in .45

[rickk]

Ok, I am somewhat confused....

I can deal with it, I can work around it,  but still I wonder about it.

Why is 2F recommended by many (including GOEX themselves) for .45 Colt, yet 3F is recommended almost exclusively for most (including Goex) for 45 C&B (except for possible exceptions of 2F in the Walker and it is pretty much anything goes in the Old Army)?

I have been shooting C&B's for many years, and have never shot 2F in any of them. It has been mostly 3F, and a little 4F in my Old Army.

I am starting to load .45 Colt for the first time and curious about the 2F recommendation.

Rick

[Mason Stillwell]

Most times I load FFFG in my C&B's and FFG in my 45 Colt's . I have loaded FFG in my C&B's and FFFG in my 45 Colts.


Don' think at cowboy distance it makes a hill of Beans.

Just my $0.02 worth.   ( not much help huh?)  LOL 

[rickk]

Actually, plenty of help, and I'm sure others will have an opinion that will help as well. 

[rickk]

OK... after looking at Goex data it gets a bit weirder...

45 Scofield with 250 grain bullet 34 gr of 3F
45 Colt with 247 grain bullet 42 gr of 2F

The change in charge makes sense but why are they messing with the granulation? I guess maybe someone decided that they could keep peak pressure down with the larger charge of 2F in the 45 colt maybe?

but...

How the heck did they get 42 grains of 2F in a 45 Colt case (a modern one anyway)? Can that actually be done?

Is this all based on tradition passed down from father to son?  I hear the original loading for 45 Colt was 2F.

Or is there some scientific reason behind all this?

I just emailed Goex and will post any reply about this that I get.

[Blackpowder Burn]

I use 2F in everything for the sake of simplicity - 45 Colt, 44 WCF, my Dragoons and the shotgun.  They all go boom and are quite accurate.  Besides, it should produce slightly lower velocities and thus make recoil a smidge less.

I don't know where they get 42 grains for the 45 Colt.  I shoot 32 grains by weight Goex 2F with a 250 BL.  Maybe it's a typo?

[rickk]

Aggie, I don't think it is a typo, as on the next line they claim 40 grains of 2F with a 255 grain bullet. If it is a typo, that would make it 2 typos in a row.

I continue to search the net on this subject and did see a person or 2 mentioning 40 grains in a 45 Colt case, but they also talked about both a drop tube and also a compression die. Maybe it is possible, but is it worth the all the extra effort just to shoot at a paper plate or a playing card just 10 feet away?

[Dick Dastardly]

.45 Caliber is the transition bore size between FFFg and FFg.  You can use either one.  Some guns and some loads prefer one, some prefer another.  Same goes for shooters.  If you've got an open mind, let yer guns talk to you.  They will soon make their preferences known to you if you take the time to learn from them.

Shoot over a chronograph and learn what the SD is for each granulation with your preferred projectiles.  Shoot some paper from a good solid rest and watch the grouping.  Keep your prejudices at bay and be alert for clues.  May the force be with you. . .

FWIW, I load FFFg in all my .45 Cal pistol loads.  My guns seem to shoot better with FFFg.  I don't shoot .45 Caliber pistol ammo in a rifle.  All four Big Lube®LLC 45 Cal bullets shoot well in my ROAs and Colt open tops.  I shoot both Kirst Konversion and original C&B cylinders with my Ruger and Colt replica pistols.  My KK cylinders in both braces of pistols get appropriate cartridge ammo.  My open tops get Cowboy 45 Special ammo and my ROAs get either C45Spl or 45 Colt ammo.  I've yet to try the Slim 45 bullets in them, but I feel that they will do well also.  My new 45 Slim molds are just being cut now.

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

Depending on the case & the BP used (vol. varies), you can get 40 gr. if you drop tube slowwwwwwwwwwwwwlllyyyyyyy. There is of course some compression. It is too slow a loading process to be practical and there is no real advantage other than to satisfy curiousity.

[w44wcf]

rickk,
Several years ago I dissected some original .45 Colt U.M.C. b.p. cartridges (pre 1911) and they contained an average of 41.2 grs. of powder. The powder ranged between 2F and 3F in size and it appeared to be a mixture of both.

42 grs of Goex can be put into modern brass (powder capacity is 3 grs less than SHBP* cases), but a compression die must be used (Lyman "M" expander die works well). I don't know why Goex used that charge weight(?)

For CAS distances, 35 grs. of either 2F or 3F works well.  THe 3F will average 100 f.p.s. more.

*Solid Head Button Pocket   aka balloon head

Have fun.
w44wcf
 

[Jamie]

This is really just an aside about Black Powder granulation size, but having been laid up for a bit over a week here with back problems, I re-read Ned Roberts' timeless tome "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle." In it, he consistently suggests granulation sizes that are not in keeping (to a large degree) with what is commonly suggested today.  He usually suggested larger sizes than are currently recommended.  Of coarse (pun intended ) powder was different in those days, and we have none of the powders that he recommended, some of which were no longer available when he first published the book in 1940 if I remember correctly.  As has been noted in many other threads, there are different powders available to us today (even outside BP substitutes) with varying degrees of power/grain as has been demonstrated by chronographs and pressure readings.  This was probably even more true "back in the day."  We know that eprouvettes (spelling?) were not an uncommon tool way back when, and were not limited to proving houses or armories.  Anyway, as I said, just an aside that seemed to make some sense, considering the thread.
Jamie

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

One of our more learned members posted that Goex data here not too long ago. I also took issue with some of the numbers, like stuffing 42 grains into a 45 Colt. And where the heck are they getting a 247 grain bullet, anyway. They claim to get 34 grains of powder into a Schofield round too.

I have concluded that some of that data from Goex is hooey.

Of course, how much powder you stuff into a cartridge also has a lot to do with how much of the bullet extends into the cartridge case. When I designed the original J/P 45-200 bullet, it was pretty squat below the crimp groove. Not as much extended into the case as the PRS 250 grain bullet. So it was possible to stuff in more powder under the 200 grainer than the 250 grainer.

44wcf: is it a reasonable guess that those cartridges you disassembled were balloon head cases?

Using reasonable compression, I cannot get anywhere near 40 grains, or 42 grains under a 250 grain bullet in modern brass. Without running down and checking in my loading notebook, I think I can only get around 34.5 grains into a modern 45 Colt under a 250 grain bullet. I don't see any point in drop tubing and using a compression die to be able to stuff 40 grains in for CAS shooting. Just too much trouble.

[August]

Uh... could the fact the the .45 Long Colt's is a pistol cartridge have anything to do with it?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Anything to do with what?

[Noz]

I run FFg in 44-40, 12 ga and 1860 Armys. they all go boom every time.

[Bishop Creek]

Here's my 2¢, I use both 3F and 2F in my cap and ball revolvers and .45 Schofield reloads. They both work fine.

Driftwood, I'm about ready to load up some .45 Scholfield cases using the J/P 45-200 bullets. How many grains of 2F would you recommend, 28?

[wildman1]

I have a TC Cherokee 45 percussion rifle that doesn't shoot 3f worth a hoot, does very well with 2f. WM

[w44wcf]

Howdy
........44wcf: is it a reasonable guess that those cartridges you disassembled were balloon head cases?

Yes, they are SHBP cases.

w44wcf

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood, I'm about ready to load up some .45 Scholfield cases using the J/P 45-200 bullets. How many grains of 2F would you recommend, 28?

Howdy

I'm gonna give you my standard answer. Pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder is compressed by 1/16" - 1/8". You can eyeball it by holding the bullet next to the case, or you can make a little stick and use it as a ruler, comparing the amount of space left above the powder to the distance from the crimp groove of to the bottom of the bullet.

My standard load in 45 Schofield with the J/P 45-200 bullet is 1.9CC of FFg. To get you in the ballpark, when I was using Goex, this was about 27 grains, now that I use Schuetzen, it is about 28.4 grains. But you really should heed what I said about the correct amount and do the measuring for yourself. The weight of Black Powder can vary, from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even from lot to lot. So pour in what looks like the correct amount, then pour it out and weigh it, and you will have answered your own question.

[Mako]

Howdy

I'm gonna give you my standard answer. Pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder is compressed by 1/16" - 1/8". You can eyeball it by holding the bullet next to the case, or you can make a little stick and use it as a ruler, comparing the amount of space left above the powder to the distance from the crimp groove of to the bottom of the bullet.

My standard load in 45 Schofield with the J/P 45-200 bullet is 1.9CC of FFg. To get you in the ballpark, when I was using Goex, this was about 27 grains, now that I use Schuetzen, it is about 28.4 grains. But you really should heed what I said about the correct amount and do the measuring for yourself. The weight of Black Powder can vary, from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even from lot to lot. So pour in what looks like the correct amount, then pour it out and weigh it, and you will have answered your own question.

Driftwood couldn't be more correct on this. That is a big +1 here...

Regards,
Mako

[Icebox Bob]

Ditto on Driftwood's comments.

Couple of years ago I stocked up on BP.  The price was right and I got both 2F and 3f.  Been using the 2f in my 12ga & 45-75, and 3f in my 44-40 & 44 C&B.

When it comes time to restock I will be buying 2f for everything.