Jamming with a new 44/40 Spencer

[Andrew6thCav]

Hi everyone. 

I'm a new Spencer shooter that took my 44/40 for a spin reenacting this weekend at the Selma event.  Earlier I had posted about a few feeding/loading problems I had with the carbine, all of which I resolved with the help of this site and advice of Spencer veterans like Charles Misulia.  I had a chance to meet several society members this weekend at the event as well, and everyone had good advice for a Spencer newbie like myself. 

I did, however, run into one problem with the Spencer that actually ended up being pretty serious.  I had purchased CCI #209 shotshell primers for the veteran arms 44/40 blanks that I had for the event.  My first few rounds fired and cycled well, but then I experienced a severe breechblock jam that could usually only be cleared by actually removing the block itself.  When the jam would occur the percussion plate would become quite loose and the breech could not move at all.  Once unscrewed the breech would still be very difficult to remove, and only after a few moments of wobbling it back and forth gently would it finally, easily release. 

With the aid of our regimental Ordinance Sergeant, who is a gunsmith, the weapon was disassembled there was no evidence of any defect in the mechanism.  The percussion plate had some trouble coming off once the retaining screws were removed, but after a few moments it gently slid off and I found the firing pin and spring to both be in order.  There was no visible reason that the defect should occur.  A heavy application of lube seemed to help with the problem, and I was able to clear around 20 or so rounds during the battle until the jam occurred again.  This time, the jam cleared itself after about 30 minutes. 

After talking with some of the present Spencer Shooting Society members we came to the conclusion that the possible culprit was the CCI primers that I was using.  The pin was penetrating quite deeply into the primers and we speculated that the firing pin could be catching inside the primer, causing the breech to jam.  I know there's a debate on whether or not certain primers are harder or softer than others, but the other Spencer shooters at the event had had success with the rounds I was using, but none had ever used CCI.  My immediate solution is to get some different kinds of primers, primarily Federal and Winchester, and try them on the range.  Hopefully if the CCI primers are the issue and switching to a different primer will solve my problem, but I wanted to post my experiences here and see if anyone else had similar experiences or insight into what may be causing the issue.  Currently I'm able to clear no more than five rounds reliably at a time before I irrecoverably jam and have to remove the breechblock to remove the spent round. 

Thanks in advance for any advice that you can offer.  I deeply appreciate all the help I already received at the Selma event and I look forward to seeing many of you in person again. 

[Sean Thornton]

Andrew,
It was great to meet and talk with you at Selma this past weekend.  Sorry to hear about the trouble with your Spencer.  I am not sure what the answer is for that, could be the primer.  Feel free to e-mail and keep in touch.

I enjoyed the Selma event and had a great time with the Spencer.
Andy

[Andrew6thCav]

Andrew,
It was great to meet and talk with you at Selma this past weekend.  Sorry to hear about the trouble with your Spencer.  I am not sure what the answer is for that, could be the primer.  Feel free to e-mail and keep in touch.

I enjoyed the Selma event and had a great time with the Spencer.
Andy

It was great fighting alongside your group Andy.  You're always welcome to fall in with the 6th/10th anytime you feel like making a trip to the deep south.  I will indeed keep in touch and perhaps I'll end up in your neck of the woods sometime. 

As for my issue, I honestly can't think of anything that it could be other than the primer since all the mechanisms seem to be operating properly.  Trying different primers could sort the problem quickly, but if it doesn't I suppose it will be time to get the opinion of a gunsmith and perhaps look at replacing some or all of the upper breechblock.  I can't see any defect there when I disassemble it myself, but if there is a fault that's where it has to lie. 

[Herbert]

When you cock the hamer the fireing pin should retract from the fired case automaticly ,if this is not hapening your fireing pin may be slitly bent this hapens wen the percusion slide is loose( good idear to use locktight on the screws)also check the nose of the pin for bures and straight ness

[Andrew6thCav]

When you cock the hamer the fireing pin should retract from the fired case automaticly ,if this is not hapening your fireing pin may be slitly bent this hapens wen the percusion slide is loose( good idear to use locktight on the screws)also check the nose of the pin for bures and straight ness

You may be right, and this is something else I have been considering.  The impression on the spent rounds is not exactly centered on the back of the primer, but is tending to be slightly off center on each round.  It doesn't look like the impression is at any kind of an angle however. 
Interestingly enough, tightening the screws on the percussion slide increased the jamming, making the rifle jam on every round instead of one in every few rounds.  When the jam occurs the slide becomes very loose, and can be moved back and forth with a finger with almost no pressure.  This loose action continues until the breechblock is either removed from the rifle or the problem corrects itself.  It may in fact be an issue with the pin, but the pin itself looks straight and has no visible burs or problems.  If swapping primers doesn't help, I could order a spare pin and slide and give that a try.  Thanks for the ideas!

[Herbert]

The slide should move freely backwards and forwards with the screws tightened(untightened screws quickly lead to trouble)take the block out and tigten the screws if it jams in the forward posisition and will not return under spring tension pull it apart and put marking ink on every thing,reasemble and tighten then manualy make the slide move backwards and forwards,shiny spots are were it is catching,polish these untill it moves freely ,then tighten using blue Lock Tight to stop the scews coming loose(very important and the most comon cause of misfires and bent firing pins)

[Andrew6thCav]

The slide should move freely backwards and forwards with the screws tightened(untightened screws quickly lead to trouble)take the block out and tigten the screws if it jams in the forward posisition and will not return under spring tension pull it apart and put marking ink on every thing,reasemble and tighten then manualy make the slide move backwards and forwards,shiny spots are were it is catching,polish these untill it moves freely ,then tighten using blue Lock Tight to stop the scews coming loose(very important and the most comon cause of misfires and bent firing pins)

I just now double checked everything and the percussion slide does move freely backwards and returns under tension.  I can't get it to replicate jamming in the forward position at all without firing, everything with the mechanism seems smooth.  The only thing that is odd is that when I remove the screws from the percussion plate, it does not come off of the upper block, it continues to move the firing pin backwards and forwards without the screws attached.  It takes several minutes of gently moving the slide for it to finally come forward and slide off of the block.  Once done, I examined the firing pin and spring closely and saw nothing amiss. The spring is tight and straight, and the pin is flawless.  I put everything back together and the slide performs normally as it did before.  I don't think the pin was striking out of place, because when I examined the face of the breechblock the rounds seemed to have been sitting slightly off center when they were seated in the barrel, resulting in the high placement of the pin strike. 

Despite all this, I'm still inclined to think that the issue may in fact be something to do with the slide or firing pin spring.  I'm perplexed why the slide doesn't just come off when the screws are removed, and I am really confused as to how the pin could have become so stuck in the primers that the spring could not pull them out if it was functioning properly.  I may go ahead and replace the spring and slide just to see if there might be some unseen flaw that's only being exposed when I'm shooting the rifle. 

At the very least if I can find somewhere locally that carries 209 primers in a brand other than CCI I can take the rifle to the range and experiment with several rounds with different primers and see if there's any difference at all. 

[Andrew6thCav]

Good news!

I managed to find a local shop with Winchester primers and took the rifle to my local range.  I was able to clear 24 rounds with the winchester primers without any incident.  I then switched to CCI and jammed on the second round. 

I found the firing pin was penetrating the CCI very harshly, and was almost going through the primer completely.  There was less of a dimple and a lot more of a hole in the shape of the firing pin on the back of the rounds.  The Winchester primers had a more shallow dimple, much wider than the CCI and not as deep.  The only hitch on the Winchester came when the primer on one round backed out a touch and caused more of a catch than a jam, a gentle tug of the lever cleared it and I was able to cycle rounds. 

At this point my problem is hopefully solved and this can serve as a word of warning to those considering shooting loadable blanks with CCI primers.  I thank everyone for their responses and for all the on site help I got at Selma.  Looking forward now to giving my Spencer a real workout in three weeks.