1861 Colt shoots high

[SwampMouse]

I have one 1861 Colt and I ordered another today. The one I have shoots high at 25 yards and changing the load doesn't move it much. I was told they all shoot high because the front sight is too short on purpose. I heard it was because they want them to shoot at 50 yards which seems a little far for most pistol use.  Is this true? I'm asking different people to see what the consensus is.

I was told the new pistol will also shoot high. What is the best way to lower the bullet impact point?

Thanks

oops meant high

[Mako]

Hi Swampmouse,

I've already told you what I think, so I'll let some others answer you on this forum.

Welcome to the forum, and congrats on the second '61 when is is arriving?

Regards,
Mako

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

It can be corrected two ways;

1. Higher front sight, either a blade set in the lengthwise slot that the factory sight sits in, or a tiny dovetailed sight.  I prefer the first.  My 1860 is done that way.

2. Lower backsight, which means taking metal off the top of the cocked hammer.  I would not have suggested this off the top, but I recently acquired an older 1861 that had had this done; - and it WORKS! (Except the resulting notch is tiny; Very Tiny!)

There might be a third way, but I haven't tried it. My 1862 police needs to be corrected but the barrel is quite slim, barely enough to hold a tiny bead. I've thought of soldering on a tradegun sight like one of these;

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=14&subID=167&styleID=762&PageSize=10&Page=3

[pony express]

How high does it shoot, and what sort of targets are you going to use it on? My 1860's shoot just a couple of inches high at cowboy ranges, I just use a "6 o'clock" hold and they are dead center on the steel targets we use. But if you're doing something more precision, some sight work may be needed.

[Long Johns Wolf]

SwampMouse: congrats on your 1861 Navy. That is an elegant C&B revolver. You already got good advice how to improve the sights. You did not tell us the maker of the pistols, however.
Before you move to work the sights you may want to exclude 3 potential problem areas affecting your POI:
# Is the muzzle possilby damaged by a burr or something?
# Is the bore properly centered?
# If your Navy is an Italian replica usually their arbors are NOT properly bottemed in the barrel because they are too short. Consequently you cannot "standardize" the depth the wedge is pushed into the barrel. The deeper you push the wedge the higher the pistol will shoot due to the too short arbor...until eventually the cone will interfer with the movement of the cylinder.
Such a situation is easily corrected as explained by a recent article of Lars Pettifogger in the Cowboy Chronicle.
Long Johns Wolf

[Montana Slim]

.............
2. Lower backsight, which means taking metal off the top of the cocked hammer.  I would not have suggested this off the top, but I recently acquired an older 1861 that had had this done; - and it WORKS! (Except the resulting notch is tiny; Very Tiny!)
..............

Sir Charles...I do something similar to my 1860s....but, I carefully use a dremel to recut the "V" notch....bigger and deeper.
My guns still shoot a few inches high...but they work well for me.

Slim

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Most military arms of that era had sights set for a point-blank range calculated to get hits with a centre of visible mass hold over the longest feasible distance.  For a pistol a 75 yard range sight setting could get lethal hits to that range and farther with a belt-buckle-hold.  For a battle rifle the range was somewhere around 300 yards, I think.

[Long Johns Wolf]

FWIW: I always wondered about this POI story at 50 or 100 yards information. I thought that during the Civil War the rifle was the primary weapon of the solders but the pistol was kind of a last resort only for close action when the chips were down. They were probably dead on at 5 yards with the PC front sight but then one would not use the sight anyhow.
On the other hand the Belgian maker FAUL raised the height of the front sight of their Centaure "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" during the course of their production from PC low profile to really high to bring POA & POI together at 25 meters. Note high factory front sight of this late production Centaure RNMA.
Long Johns Wolf

[Noz]

I have deepened and widened the hammer sights on all of my 1860s to bring POA to POI. Go slowly.

[Jamie]

From what reading I've done on the subject (lots and lots over the past 35 years - everything I've seen since developing a strong inclination toward C+B revolvers) this was designed in.  Remember that these guns were built as battle weapons, primarily designed and at least initially primarily used in warfare.  They were extremely popular since they offered 5 to 6 shots depending on whether or not they were loaded all the way around or had an empty cylinder for safety.  Massed fire was still the primary focus during the civil war, and they started shooting long before the enemy (whoe'r he might be) got close enough to skewer you with bayonet or lop off your head with his saber.  Massed fire (see the movie "Ride With the Devil" with Toby McGuier (sp?) and you'll get some sense of how the pistol could have been used, especially facing a charge) was especially helpful as the enemy approached, and in the last 100 yards you wanted to pour as much lead into the advance as was humanly possible.  Even rifles from WWII were sighted for ridiculous ranges, again, the idea was to mass fire on an moving in.  How many of us would used plain old open sights and shoot at a deer 1000 yards off?  They wanted them to aim low, and hit high.  It's easier at a distance to aim dead center, at which point the immediately vital areas are all elevated.
      As to the hows of correcting the situation for the kind of shooting we do today, like others, I would suggest a taller blade front sight.  I had a gunsmith add one to my 1862 Colt Pocket Police (replica!) and also had him square and deepen the notch in the hammer nose.  This thing is a tack driver, and fully validates the claims of people like Mike Venturino who has often stated in print his opinion that well sighted and shot C and B revolvers are equal to cartridge revolvers.  My first group printed right at point of aim at 25 yards and put all five shots into a sub 2" group.
      American rifleman did an article on accurizing a C and B revolver back in the later 6o's or early 70's and the primary thing they recommended is exactly what I've related.  They did recommend that you not go hog wild on the hammer as any material removal there would get beneath the case hardening and could result in hammer damage and eventually cause ignition problems.  I'm not sure how realistic that would be, but, that's what they said.  Certainly re-case hardening the hammer could, in any event cure that ill.  Having experience the joy of turning an old charcoal burner into a genuine squirrel gun made the efforts worthwhile.  It cost less than $200.  The installation of the blade discolored the bluing on the muzzle end a bit, but big whoop.  This thing shoots, and it hits exactly where the gun points.
Jamie

[Montana Slim]

BTW, I've asked the folks at Dixie Gun Works to offer a taller front sight for the Colt C&B pistols. Guess I'm the only one who's asked since it hasn't happened. I recall giivng Hunter an engineering drawing for an appropriate sight sight setting. replacing the front sight is not a major skill undertaking....I've replaced several which were lost during firing.

Minor deepening/widening the rear sight "V" will do no harm, unless your digging for gold (you won't find any either). But, don't expect this to totally eliminate the "high" shooting. For combat type shooting I very much like being able to see my intended impact point while using the sights. My deer guns are setup the exact same way....you cannot hit a mark that your sights cover.

if you look closely between some of the original Colts and todays repros, you'll see that some models of the Uberti repros do have taller front sights.

As far as the cylinder gap, my Uberti & Pietta Colt 1860's are running around .004" and they certainly shoot well & do so for extended firing sessions. Never had a problem with a close fit on a Colt....but, I'll I would certainly open it up if it drags.

Slim

[Mako]

Long Johns Wolf,

That is a good looking front sight!  It looks like the height they have to be to hit dead on at 10 to 15 yards.  Do us all a big favor and give us two measurements.

• The diameter of the barrel just behind the sight
• And the height of the site from the top of the barrel.  It would also be acceptable to measure from the top of the sight to the bottom of the barrel and just subtract the diameter you measured behind the sight.  With the very small taper of the barrel that would be close enough for us.

I was thinking about making some replacement sights that look like the Uberti and maybe even the Pietta sights that could be staked in instead of having to resort to a custom sight or a dovetailed sight.  I already know what the Uberti dimension needs to be, and I only have a pair of the short 5 1/2" barreled Piettas I got at an outrageously low price at Cabelas so I'm not sure if where they print on paper is representative of 8" Piettas.  Having another data point for your Centaur will help on my converence on the ideal "universal" sight height for 1860s (probably '61s as well).

Perhaps those of you who have replaced your Pietta sights will chime in with dimensions.  I don't want to make a sight "blank", I want it to be a replacement that will get it close enough that the inch or two difference in bullet placement between pistols will make it a "plug and play" sight. 

Regards,
Mako

[Long Johns Wolf]

Mako & campfire: will gladly to that but...please, check first Centaure website www.1960nma.org, click on Production page on the left navigation bar and scroll down to the chapter titled like 2nd gen. Colt vs. Centaure. There are a couple of tables with comparative measurements in mm and in.
Just may be that information there will already do the trick...
And please note that
a. the muzzle dia of the Centaure barrels is bigger than the Colts although
b. the Centaure's bore dia is smaller. On top of that the
c. late production Centaure's front sight are significantly higher than those of the Colts (=Ubertis).
If that data is not sufficient I will happily walk down into the dungeons and do more measuring.
Long Johns Wolf

[Mako]

Herr Niederastroth,
Thank for your quick reply, and yes that information is perfect.  I find that I overlook things as I read.  I had seen that page and just glanced over it not realizing the wealth of information on it.

I knew the barrel was larger in diameter which is why I asked.  I don't think the bore differences or the barrel diameter will make much of a difference in the sight height from the centerline of the bore.  I can't remember the height from centerline that had to be changed on the Ubertis I have off hand I'll  have to measure a couple.

There is one last thing missing in this equation, I looked on the site and I didn't see a reference to the height of the hammer top edge when cocked to the centerline of the bore  This would be the height of the top edge of the rear sight from the centerline.  You probably don't have that recorded, or did I miss it?  Without that there isn't any way to apply simple trigonometry to determine the aiming point relative to the centerline of the barrel when aimed at a target about 10 meters away.

It isn't a major deal, it would just be nice someday to have that in the mix of things.  I can provide the dimensions for six Uberti 1860s (before sight changes), two Pietta 5.5" 1860s and two original 1860s (produced in 1861 and 1862), a pair of Uberi Richards Transition models  in .44 Spl (2nd Model Richards), and one ASM Richards type one reproduction if you have any interest in those numbers.

Regards,
Mako

P.S. I had my friend to ask the collector about photographs of that Richards 2nd Model.  He didn't say no, but he didn't come out and say yes.  According to Leon he is a bit eccentric (aren't we all) and you don't always get an answer right away.  I'll check again.

[Fox Creek Kid]

FWIW, Cimarron changed the sight height on their '72 OT as it originally copied the original which is very short. I have made taller brass sights for revolvers from brass stock and Loctited them in & then filed them down to POA which is the best solution if you don't want to dovetail. Brass is easy to work with and picks up light better than steel as well.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As far as I can tell, yes these pistols were originally regulated to shoot a lot farther than we are used to shooting them. I seem to remember that the sights on the SAA were originally regulated to hit point of aim at something like 50 yards.

I can give you several examples. I bought my first 1858 Remmie way back around 1975 or so. Many years later, looking at the advertisements for similar revolvers, it looked to me as though the front sights were a lot taller than on my old EuroArms Remmie. I was considering buying a R&D conversion cylinder for it at the time, so I went to the range to confirm, and sure enough, with the stock sight and a normal C&B load it was shooting about 8" high at typical CAS ranges. So I went to the internet and ordered a new Uberti front sight for it. When the new sight arrived, it was clearly taller than the original sight. The dovetail on the new sight was larger than the original dovetail, so I took the gun to a smith and told him I wanted to cut a new dovetail into the barrel to fit the new front sight, and I wanted him to install the new front sight. He did a good job and I took the gun home to try it out with its new taller front sight. Same C&B load and now it was printing right where it pointed. At this point I went ahead and bought the conversion cylinder. With my BP 45 Schofield loads and the taller front sight, it prints right where it points.

Here is a photo of my Remmie with its much taller front sight. The original sight was nowhere near as tall.



Example #2.

I have a really nifty original S&W New Model #3, chambered for 44 Russian. It shoots really high. About 8" high at CAS distances. I have read some on this model. Mike Venturino has stated that they all shoot high, and I have found this to be true. Here is a photo of the gun. Notice how short the front sight is. I am not going to modify anything on this one, it is too valuable. Instead, I try to remember to aim at the lower edge of the targets, and I always hit them.



Example #3.

I bought this S&W DA 44 only about a month ago. Both of these old Smiths have 6 1/2" barrels, so you can scale the front sights pretty well just by comparing the photos. The front sight on this old baby is not original, it was clearly added some time in the last 120 years, and it is a little bit crude. I am convinced a previous owner put this sight on because this gun also shot high close in. With this kludged together front sight, it shoots right to point of aim, unlike my nice shiny New Model # 3. I am thinking of replacing this front sight with a nice old dime, if I can find one, maintaining the height of the present sight.



Bottom line, if it shoots high, it will probably benefit from a taller front sight. You probably will not be able to make enough difference just by putting in a heavier load. Either that, or remember to hold on the bottom of the target.

[Montana Slim]

A good approximate working height for the 1860 Colt would be about .250 (inch) above the barrel. Depth of the slot is around .075 on the pistols I checked.

For those interested in a simple, custom fit sight height for any firearm....simply tape an extra tall front sight (made of stiff cardboard) on the pistol barrel. take to the range with your ammo & proceed to fire for effect. Trim the cardboard sight to adjust POI up. All your interested in at this point is elevation. You now know the correct sight height. Make your custom sight based on the height of the final cardboard & install.

Swapping the Colt Sight is fairly easy once you get the hang of it. I mechanically lock by staking & you really can't tell this has been done. Good idea to add a drop of loctite there, too.

Slim

[Jamie]

Uh, I was typing fast, and in case anyone read my previous post, please excuse the errors - and that $200 sight job quoted was actually $20.  Yeah, I'll try to be more careful in the future.
Jamie

[Long Johns Wolf]

Herr Mako, Sir & the campfire: now you caught me. I did not measure the height of the top edge of the cocked hammer over the center bore line. And I have no idea how I could do that ... without a laser pointer in the center of the bore. I don't have one. And I have no other idea how to tackle that.
So, I am afraid, I cannot offer a simple mathematical solution to this one...or I am overlooking the obvious?! That would be disappointing.
But I saw some light and did something else: I took all my different variants of late production Centaures, i. e. 1971 to 1973 manufactured,
# with the original, unaltered "high" factory front sight
# 8" barrels,
# no matter if the finish was blued/case hardened or high gloss polish/in the white, or of the steel was carbon or stainless steel,
and fully cocked them (firing position). 7 Specimens in all.
Then I placed a sharp edged ruler of 30 cm/12" length with the sharp edge on top of the respective barrels...and was surprised.
Because in all 7 pistols the sharp edge of that ruler rested right on the bottom of the rear sight notch of the respective hammer.
In all 7 ruling procedures the ruler was in complete contact with the top round of the respective barrels, laying completely parallel over the whole length of the barrels, from the rear end of the front sight to the breech.
I hope I could make myself somewhat clear and trust that this little experiment adds some inspiration to the trigonometry.
Long Johns Wolf

[ZVP]

 After reading several articles on and many, many complaints on the Colt style revolver shooting high I have come to believe it IS a fact!
The origonals were sighted in to provide fire at ranges of 75 to 100 yards during a charge or to effectivelly repel one with this sight setting. The big .44 ball was deadly at such ranges! Hits from a volly fired at these ranges were definatelly effective and the possibility of six repeated follow-ups produced a devastating effect! The Dragoon, the Colt 1861 and the Remington 1858 were designed as "Horse Pistols" and intended to provide rifle-like fire from horseback.This was the expected use of the arm.
From all my observations and readings, it appears it is common to have a low front sight on the revolver. Wheather it is to be historically correct to their design or it is the intent of the current Manufacturers to construct a 100 yard revolver, it has yet to be determined? The "high" hitting pattern is a fact though.
The only cures are to heighten the Front Sight or to deepen the notch in the Hammer. You can regulate the front sight to zero at 25 yards by replacing it as noted above.
I have used the deepening of the Hammer Notch on my revolvers and making the final hold-under estimation is not that difficult.
I have only had to modify one Piettia Remington replica front sight to hit spot-on. This was on a 5 1/2" bbl model and I actually had to remove sight material to get it to shoot POI@ 21 feet. With a 35 gr charge and a round pure Lead ball, the Remington hits right at POI now!
You first need to determine the distance which YOU want the revolver to hit and remember that once the sight is so modified, you are stuck with it without much room for adjustment (via Powder Charges and Bullet type).
Enclosed within this string are some EXCELLENT suggestions on how to modify the sights! If you're willing to invest in the costs and follow them, then you will have your revolver hitting the way you want.
ZVP