Colt .36 Navy. Stopping power and use

[Doug.38PR]

The 1851 Navy .36 Caliber was one of the most popular revolvers of the pre cartridge era (and even survived as a cartridge conversion gun well into the late 19th century).  Notable users include Bill Hickock, John Wesley Hardin, Jesse James, Robert E. Lee.   When Jefferson Davis became Secretary of War, he made it the standard issue pistol for the 2nd U.S. Cavalry serving in Texas.   It was used by Cavalry and officers on both sides of the War for Southern Independence.

According to my research, the power of this gun is, by modern standards, the equivalent of a .380 acp.   I realize, back then, after being shot by ANY gun you would very likely die of infection if you survived the initial gunshot.  (but then men were known to have walked around all their lives with bullets lodged in them).  BUT, in the immediate combat situation, whether as a gunfighter, mounted cavalry or infantry officer, if I had a ticked off Confederate charging at me with a bayonet or a swarm of Union soldiers charging my line of defense, or was having to outshoot somebody in a bar room or knock somebody down in a cavalry charge....wouldn't I want something that would do the job?   Or have we modern people underestimated the .36 caliber (and by extension the .38 Long Colt and the .380 acp?)  
The moros in the phillippines sure convinced the U.S. Army that the .45 Long Colt was needed over the .38 Long Colt.   Or am I missing something?

I was watching the movies Gettysburg and Glory the other night on TCM and saw several union officers using said weapon in pretty rough situations

[St. George]

Read 'Sixguns' - by Elmer Keith.

He recounts some first-hand accounts learned from Civil War Cavalrymen that'll be of interest.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major 2]

"Hell ...I was There"   

refuring to movies Gettysburg and Glory 

[5judge]

Jesse James was shot in the body by a .36 round ball in 1865. One of the ways his remains were identifed a few years ago was by the fired .36 calibre ball found amid the bones.

[Doug.38PR]

Jesse James was shot in the body by a .36 round ball in 1865. One of the ways his remains were identifed a few years ago was by the fired .36 calibre ball found amid the bones.

Unless it was the bullet Bob Ford fired, I'd say it didn't do it's job

[Bishop Creek]

One thing to keep in mind is that in the mid to late 19th Century, a .36 cal weapon was considered quite adequate. The "magnum" pistol rounds that we use today were of course, unknown in that era (except for the big, heavy Walkers and Dragoons), and most folks that carried firearms felt well armed with small caliber revolvers. Horse soldiers and cowboys often carried a .44 caliber pistol but most others didn't. Note the high number of cartridge .22 S&W's carried by soldiers in the Civil War as back up guns and the plethora of small caliber .32 pocket pistols that were in abundance in those days. One of Colt's best selling pistols of the cap and ball era was the .32 caliber 1849 pocket pistol.

When cartridges came into common usage, the .38 short Colt caliber was very popular. Even most modern police departments in the U.S. carried .38 Specials until twenty years or so ago.

As the original poster mentioned John Wesley Hardin, Hardin himself noted the big bore .44s that the Texas Rangers were carrying when he was arrested in Florida in 1877 and knew that they were not local peace officers as  "...it must be Texas business" for the officers to be carrying such large caliber weapons. Heck, when Wild Bill was killed in Deadwood in 1876, he didn't even have his famous Navy revolvers on him, just a S&W .32 Old Model Army.  

[Doug.38PR]

One thing to keep in mind is that in the mid to late 19th Century, a .36 cal weapon was considered quite adequate. The "magnum" pistol rounds that we use today were of course, unknown in that era (except for the big, heavy Walkers and Dragoons), and most folks that carried firearms felt well armed with small caliber revolvers. Horse soldiers and cowboys often carried a .44 caliber pistol but most others didn't. Note the high number of cartridge .22 S&W's carried by soldiers in the Civil War as back up guns and the plethora of small caliber .32 pocket pistols that were in abundance in those days. One of Colt's best selling pistols of the cap and ball era was the .32 caliber 1849 pocket pistol.

When cartridges came into common usage, the .38 short Colt caliber was very popular. Even most modern police departments in the U.S. carried .38 Specials until twenty years or so ago.

As the original poster mentioned John Wesley Hardin, Hardin himself noted the big bore .44s that the Texas Rangers were carrying when he was arrested in Florida in 1877 and knew that they were not local peace officers as  "...it must be Texas business" for the officers to be carrying such large caliber weapons. Heck, when Wild Bill was killed in Deadwood in 1876, he didn't even have his famous Navy revolvers on him, just a S&W .32 Old Model Army.  

Good info!  However, one little point, it's not so much the caliber as it is the power.  There is quite a difference between the .38 short Colt/Long Colt and the .38 Special (and +P) used by police in the 20th century (even before the advent of hollowpoints).   I carry a .38 Special+P in a service or even snub nose revolver all the time and don't feel the least bit undergunned.

Today, people tend to look down on anything below a .38 Special snub nose (while there is a following among CCW for the .380 acp).   People tend to think anything less than a .38 Spl. or even a .40 S&W is only going to make the body armor wearing/PCP pumped AK-47 bearer mad (as though I'd feel comfortable with ANY handgun under those circumstances)

[Bishop Creek]

Very true about the .38 Special, especially the +P, so it might be a bad analogy. I think the key thing to keep in mind is that in the Old West, with the exception of the most lawless and remote Frontier towns, open carry was not tolerated in towns and was only acceptable on the open range or when traveling. Western movies have given us the impression that everyone was openly carrying their pistols in holsters when in reality, it was much like today, most armed persons carried a small pistol that was easily concealed in the coat or vest pocket and in those days that meant a smaller caliber weapon. However, there are a few examples of cut down snub nose .44 Colt Army models to be seen in museums, so some did carry a concealed larger caliber weapon while in town.

[Doug.38PR]

I always kinda wondered if the Hollywood "we-don't-allow-nobody-to-wear-guns-in-this-town" in Westerns (where Marshalls like Wyatt Earp have their own gun control ordinances) were just hollywood.  I mean considering many states even today, including most southern and western states allow open carry at least according to what the law doesn't say.  (surpisingly, Texas is one exception to this rule).   I open carry here in Louisiana all the time out here in the country and was even approached by a LEO who had no problem with it once.   But I understand states like Arizona have people open carrying all the time.  

Were open carry laws of the old west revoked at some point?  


Anyway, as far as the 1851 navy goes, it's pretty much the same frame size as the 1860 army or the 1858 remington and those are .44.  So as far as old west civilian carry or even military, the size of the gun as a CCW doesn't really come into play (unles of course you saw the barrel off)

Anybody see the movie The Conspirator?  It has a guy carrying a ball and cap revolver (misfiring) trying to break in to kill William Seward in the beginning and another ugy carrying one in his belt under a coat in a chickened out effort to kill Andrew Johnson

[Fox Creek Kid]

...As the original poster mentioned John Wesley Hardin, Hardin himself noted the big bore .44s that the Texas Rangers were carrying when he was arrested in Florida in 1877 and knew that they were not local peace officers as  "...it must be Texas business" for the officers to be carrying such large caliber weapons...

When Hardin was arrested in FL he was carrying a '60 Army.  Also, he killed Charlie Webb with a S&W .44 Russian. 

[Bishop Creek]

The Reconstruction Era immediately following the War Between the States had the Union Army and state police acting as law enforcement in parts of the South and unless you could prove that you were a "Traveler' you could be arrested for open carry even in the boondocks. This was especially true in Texas (and today's laws there are surely a holdover from that era). 

In the Old West, weapons had to be checked in with the local peace officer or at least left behind the bar in a saloon until the person was ready to leave town. That scene in Tombstone (one of my favorite movies) was quite accurate. I too open carry in the sticks with the encouragement of our local sheriff and years ago I often open carried in towns and cities in Arizona with no problems.

[Bishop Creek]

When Hardin was arrested in FL he was carrying a '60 Army.   Also, he killed Charlie Webb with a S&W .44 Russian.  

Very true, but Hardin had both of those weapons concealed at the time. Just prior to pulling out the S&W from under his vest and shooting Webb, he told another law officer that he was unarmed. When he was captured, the Colt 1860 .44 was hidden under his shirt, tied to his shoulder by a string. They had to rip his shirt open to get the pistol out.  

[Doug.38PR]

I recall an account T.R. Feirenbach related in Lone Star: A History of Texas and Texans during Reconstruction in which John Wesley Hardin came out on top over two Union League Negro State Policemen in Gonzales that had the drop on him.  Any idea what gun he used there?

[Bishop Creek]

I recall an account T.R. Feirenbach related in Lone Star: A History of Texas and Texans during Reconstruction in which John Wesley Hardin came out on top over two Union League Negro State Policemen in Gonzales that had the drop on him.  Any idea what gun he used there?

Not sure, Hardin only said in his autobiography that they were cap and ball revolvers. He did seem to favor the Colt .44 1860 Army over the .36 Navy, but he used both types and even shot one man with an 1863 Remington (we now erroneously call 'em "1858" Remingtons).

[Stophel]

Glad to live in Ky, where the right to BEAR arms is recognized!   

As far as "power" goes, really what is needed is penetration.  The ball/bullet has to have enough oomph to get through to vital organs.  Put the bullet where it needs to go, and have a bullet that  can penetrate to heart, lungs, or brain and the rest is not all that relevant (and most of it is marketing...).

Usually, it is considered good to have something like a foot (I think...it's been a long time since I looked at such things) of penetration in ballistics gelatin.  Less than that and you'll have problems.  I wonder what a fully loaded .36 and .44 with a round ball will do....  anybody know of any tests?

[Fox Creek Kid]

FWIW, the late Bob McNellis, who owned El Paso Saddlery, had the only known percussion revolver owned by J.W. Hardin. It was a '51 Navy and was given to him by a descendant of Hardin. He told me this story in person in 1983.

[Montana Slim]

.......Usually, it is considered good to have something like a foot (I think...it's been a long time since I looked at such things) of penetration in ballistics gelatin.  Less than that and you'll have problems.  I wonder what a fully loaded .36 and .44 with a round ball will do....  anybody know of any tests?

Mike Venturino did some penetration tests some years ago..I think it was in G&A magazine and/or on their website. I recall most of the old-west weapons good penetration...& had comparisons to modern firearms. Will post more info if/when I find it.

Slim

[ChuteTheMall]

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellp.htm#west

Here's some wild west blackpowder ballistics comparisons.

[Mogorilla]

I have conducted my own tests, 1860 colt with 28 grains bp-under .454 ball.  1851, 20 grains bp under a .376 ball, colt 1911, and beretta 9 mm (don't know what those were shooting as they weren't mine, not sure this cartridge thing will catch on, so I won't buy one yet).   We were shooting into KC phone books, nice and thick.   We put two back to back, the cap and balls penetrated the first book completely (2.5 to 3" paper) and lodged into the 2nd book about half way.  nearly same penetration for both c&B.   Neither of the cartridge guns made it all the way through, but did WAY MORE DAMAGE.   the balls were barely deforemed and almost punched through a perfect hole.  Modern rounds mushroomed and tore that paper to shreds.   

[StrawHat]

The 1851 Navy .36 Caliber was one of the most popular revolvers of the pre cartridge era ... The moros in the phillippines sure convinced the U.S. Army that the .45 Long Colt was needed over the .38 Long Colt.   Or am I missing something? ...

Not missing anything, a lot of folks used the round ball in the C&B revolvers.  According to Keith (and others) it hit harder than the conicals of the day.  The round nosed bullets, common to the military issued 38  Long Colt and 45 long Colt is an entirely different profile and more akin to the C&B conicals and slips through flesh.  The 36 round ball in C&B revolver is a better load than the 38 LC with a round nosed bullet.