Lets talk storage lube or How lucky I was today !

[Mason Stillwell]

Decided it was time to give my C&B's a good cleaning. Ones I don't shoot often.

Took out my dragoons that M bought for my birthday some years back. First one ok. Second one OH MERCY !!!!!!!!!!!!! CRAP

Looked down the barrel and found BP fouling. Looks like I fired it and put it away in the safe then moved up here to the moon.
Cleaned it and sprayed break free down the barrel and ran some patches down . It now shines like new money. I missed the boolit here on that one.

Now I got to the ones that I knew I cleaned and coated with Ballistol. Barrel looked ok. Ran a patch down with break free and out comes rust.   Cleaned and oiled both and put them away. Took out the first 58 that I knew was well coated when I put it away and CRAP more light rust.

Question (serious now) Do you think that Ballistol can cause rust over long storage ?

I am going to use break free and try that .
Don't know what else to do.

Lets have yer thoughts.

Thanks
Mason

[rickk]

Was the rust only in the barrel/cylinder and no where else? If so, then one might wonder why there was no rust elsewhere. Granted that the insides of the barrel and cylinder are not blued (minimal protection anyway), but there are probably other unblued surfaces on the guns.... how did they do?

Do you keep the guns in a damp area (basement)?  How do you store them?

Mine are in a walk-in safe that has a small heater in it. It keeps the inside about 10 degrees warmer than the outside, which drops the humidity to near nothin.  No rust issues at all with anything that I keep in there.

I keep bullet molds in there as well. Bullet molds (steel) are notorious for rusting but the ones kept in there do not rust.

I do find that BreakFree gets hard over time (a year) and no longer seems to be a lubricant. Ballistol doesn't seem to harden up.

[Montana Slim]

I have a lot of experience with CLP and it is good for moderate term storage.....easily a year.

It really helps to have all the BP fouling nuetralized by water (or similar), removed and dryed before applying storage lube.
CLP will displace moisture (the "C" part will). I caution folks to read the label if your buying this type of product as some of the companies normally associated as making CLP are offering a different formula ("CL" or "L").

Obviously, a relatively dry storage enviroment is desireable. Within a gunsafe, a special heating rod can be purchased. I also know several knowledgeable folks who keep a low-wattage Incandescent light bulb (40W) on in their safe......I have a floor-model dehumidifier near my safe.

I can imagine your disappointment finding corrosion on your firearms...but, with a little cleanup, they will still shoot well, and may even look a bit more authentic.

Slim

[Mason Stillwell]

I store my guns in a large Liberty Safe. I use the granual de humidifier  it is in a can with holes in it and you can heat it in the oven and dry it out .

When I clean my guns I give them a boiling water bath. Wipe them down and  then they go  in the oven at 185 for a while. When I take them out I clean and lube them for storage.

I know that there is more moisture here in the air than in bagdad. Never had a speck of rust in all the years I lived there that I can remember.

I would like to find a golden rod that I could get into my safe and keep plugged in to help with the moisture inside .

Thanks All
Mason

[rebsr52339]

What Mason said.++

[rickk]

My "heater" is nothing but two 100 watt incandescent light bulbs wired in series.

Wired up that way they produce at total of about 60-70 watts heat, some in the initial form of light, but eventually it all becomes heat.

That means there is at least dim lighting in there all the time as well. There is also a 15 watt CFL in there that can be switched on if needed, but CFL's don't make much heat. I need to stock up on incandescent bulbs before they ban them.

The beauty though of wiring the two bulbs in series is that they will run almost forever without burning out.

The walls are insulated and there is plastic sheeting in there as well, to hold heat in and keep the moisture out.

Rick

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Mason, Howdy!

Sorry to hear of your "troubles."

It might be that the residue wasn't TOTALLY removed from your bores/cylinder/chambers before the Ballistol was applied.  Like Mr. Slim said, the water will (should) render all residue salts inert, but perhaps there was more fouling than your Moosemilk could handle, (I assume you make MM since you have Ballistol) but that puzzles me a bit.  It'd have to be a LOT of fouling and the Moosemilk wiped out immediately after using it before it has a chance to properly "soak" into the fouling.

I have a LOT of experience with BreakFree CLP.  When used as directed, it is pretty awesome.  There are other formulas as good as if not better, but for general use, BF is hard to beat.

As to Ballistol, hear this:  it is basically mineral oil and is NOT a good lube OR preservative.  It's a LOT better than nothing and if used often enough, it can both lube and preserve for a few weeks.  However, as Slim said, BF would be much better as a preservative (and lube) for periods of a year or so.  I dare say that if more than a LIGHT coat of BF was applied before storage in your safe you could get several years of safe storage from it, especially if a de-humidifier or sorts is used, be it granule, (like you use) Goldenrod (or same type) or the lightbulb type, which can also work well.  After re-reading your 2nd post, I'm still puzzled, however.  Boiling water and heat SHOULD have done the trick, I'd think.  BUT!  Ballistol - as I said, isn't a great preservative under any humid situations.  Before anyone comments about how BF is a petroleum product and shouldn't be used in conjunction with Black Powder, I DO use other water-based lubes for shooting, BUT, for many years I didn't KNOW that petro-lubes and BP don't mix and I had NO problems with it.  I just cleaned well after each shoot and NEVER had the black, tarry issues that some have.
  I guess that since I didn't KNOW what the "experts" said, it didn't affect me!  LOL! If ignorance is bliss, then I must be VERY happy!

My safe is a simple sheetmetal type (better than nothing, but not much) and it has a 22" GoldenRod in it.  It's located in what USED to be my attached garage, and here in Indiana, high humidity is a constant factor.  I've NEVER had an issue with any rust.  Ever.  All I use is BF and TLC which I do about every other year to the ones that stay in the safe without being shot.  Several have been stored like that for 20 years now.  To be sure, I'm not skimpy with my BF and have been known to put things in my safe "wet" to the touch with BF.  That is also how my small arms (M1911A1 pistols, M16A1 & A2 rifles, M9 pistols, M240s and M2HB machine guns) stayed in numerous field problems in Germany and Desert Storm while I was in Uncle Sam's Traveling Roadshow.  The ONLY failure I had was with the MGs during the desert war ... when I gave the MGs a good coat of BF it worked FINE during the rains ... but as soon as we moved out  and the sand dried, all the oil attracted dust and rendered the MGs inoperable until I dried them out and left them dry.  Since we had NO dry graphite (or similar) lube, our MGs, which we picked up brand-spankin' new in Saudi, STILL became dust covered/impregnated and STILL wouldn't work!  They hadn't had the opportunity to "wear-in" and smooth out the new Parkerizing that made them look wonderful, instead of the typical "well-worn & used" appearance that MOST tank small arms have.  LOL!


I hope you'll find what works for YOU!

[Mason Stillwell]

Steel Horse thanks for your reply. My safe is a fire proof one and was in storage for a long time. I did not get to look after my guns like I should have. And I keep thinking ( I soaked them down in Ballistol they should be fine)> Well they weren't fine.

One of my favorite rifles is a marlin in 38/55 and was a tack driver. Now it has pitting at the last 6 inches of the barrel. The chamber end looks like a mirror with a bore light. the muzzle end even looks dull with the shallow pitting.

I am going to find out how to install a golden rod . I don't see any holes that I could run an electrical cord in and put the golden rod inside. I think that if I drilled a hole it would compromise the fire proofing.


Mason (who now doubts Ballistoll) Stillwell

[Cactus Cris]

Mason--I bet if you look hard enough you will find a "plug" somewhere on the back or bottom of your safe that you can remove to get slsc cord thru.  They build them so that de-humid- can be put into the insides.   Just a thot!

[rickk]

My safe is a fire proof one and was in storage for a long time.

Mason, If you were using what I think you were using for a safe... problem solved.

A classic "fireproof safe" is of double walled construction. In between the two walls is a substance very similar, if not identical to "Kitty Litter". It sucks up moisture out of the air by design. When there is a fire, the absorbed water protect the contents for a period of time until the moisture is all boiled off.

That being said, the innards of a fireproof safe are surrounded by moisture on all sides and are also very damp. Yes, I hear you about the desiccant you put in there, but the stuff needs to be "recharged" by baking quite often, and it still has a down hill battle to keep the moisture down to where it needs to be (near zero would be nice).

If I assume wrong about your safe construction, chime in here, but the typical "fire proof" safe you can buy at the box stores right now is pretty much thick sheet metal and kitty littler.

[Mason Stillwell]

My Liberty Safe.

OK Look at all the finger prints. I have been cleaning guns not the outside of the safe. Oh well at least it is a photo of hte safe.

Mason

[Mason Stillwell]

Just reread rickk's post and I might have thought I had something I did not have. I was told by the company in Phoenix that sold this safe that is is fire proof up to 1 hour  or 1 and 1/2 something like that. I do know it has some kind of a board like sheet rock. And this thing is super heavy. Does it have a inner layer of some moisture absorbing material ( I don't Know)
What I do know is that I will no longer depend on Ballistol as I had these guns soaked in it. Now my 38/55 is probably just a pile of junk. I will still use ballistol at matches and for shooting bp as a lube and even moose milk as a cleaner. But I will use a something  like Break Free CLP for a storage oil.

I am not trying to sway anyone away from what they use . Their business period. I am just telling what happened to me and what I am going to do about it.

Please don't let your firearms fall to the moisture monster. Also Don't do like me and not take the guns out of the safe ever few months and inspect them.

Enough of my babble .

Later Mason   

[Fox Creek Kid]

IMO, the problem is not the Ballistol entirely but rather that you are boiling the guns parts to clean. This is most likely residual flash rusting that did not show itself right away. I found this out just as you now have years ago with a ML rifle. When I started using tepid water and not hot water the problem went away.

[rickk]

Mason, the fiber board is designed to absorb water. Basically, you are storing your guns in a box of wet sheet rock.

If you put a heater in it, it will drive the moisture away, and eventually dry out the sheet rock as well, so your fireproof rating will drop.

Can't have cake and eat it as well apparently.

If you want to verify what is going on, check Radio Shack or Walmart for a cheapo humidity gauge and stick it in there for a few days to see what the moisture settles out at.

Nice floor btw... I have the exact same pattern in my kitchen and bathroom. It wasn't the cheapest vinyl flooring... far from it, but the color matched the color of the dirt in our lives so it all blends in (I raise large animals).

Rick

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy again.  I HOPE my memory is correct regarding the times, but if not exact, it's close.  One layer of standard (5/8" ? or so) sheet rock will serve as a fire barrier for 35 minutes or so.   Double that or come up with another material, and you get the 1 hour (plus) fire ratings likie Mason has in his Liberty.  When I worked for Popguns in Indy, Liberty safes were what we carried.  The Boss had researched the available makes and decided that Liberty made the best for the least $$$s.  (No, I don't get a kick-back from them!)
 

They seem to be pretty good safes and unless it's waaaaaay old, it probably has a knock-out plug/hole/something for a cord to pass 'thru.  Look about a foot up from where it sits on the floor, probably on the R side of the back panel.   My Goldenrod (and every other I've seen) comes with the cord and the plug separate so you can run the wire 'thru a very small hole, which won't compromise the fire rating.  Until then, your dessicant should be fine if re-activated periodically.  The light bulb type works fine, too.  You might be very surprised how much heat comes from a 40 or 60 watt bulb over time in a closed box, like a safe.

Like you've apparently decided, B/F CLP will work well for you - don't get rid of the Ballistol, it's still very effective with water (Moosemilk) as a BP cleaner/neutralizer.  I use about a 6 to 1 mix - I like it "heavy" on the oil part ... when the water evaporates, there's a visible coating of oil.  Fox Creek Kid may be on to something, too.  That flash rust is fast!  It happened to me once when I used (near) boiling water on my 1860, but got interrupted during the "washing & rinsing" process and set the gun down on a towel ... wet, then returned about 45 minutes later to find a light coat of orange over my new gun - which was being cleaned after the SECOND time I fired it!  I was frantic, but no problem came of it.  The flash rust may indeed have formed before the Bal. was applied and it took a while to work 'thru the light oil protection that the Bal. gave it.  Such a shame ... but I HAVE seen firsthand an M2 HB machine gun opened up brand-new from storage (brand-new = arsenal rebuild, NOT actually NEW) that had rust underneath the cosmolene - it had been over 40 years in storage and had a pretty good bunch of rust and pitting around the barrel extension.  (Where the chamber end of the barrel fixes into the receiver - the "cooling holes" had a lot of rust around some of them.  It didn't  affect the MG operationally ... and besides; you can't return damaged items for "store credit" from the tank depot when you're issued a new M1A1 and all the basic load of tools and guns issued with it, unless it causes a working failure!)  By the way, BreakFree and a wire brush solved the rust/pitting problem and kept it from getting any worse.

Have fun!

[rickk]

Like Steel Horse Baily said, a light bulb puts out a lot of heat.  To save yourself some frustration however, you will need to do something if you try a light bulb to stop it from continually burning out and leaving you with no protection.

There are a number of options to make a light bulb last longer. Some are more technical than others.

A very simple method is to find a 130 volt lightbulb. I believe I have seen then at Home Depot. When run on a more noram 115 to 120 volts they are less efficient, but you don't care because you only want heat anyway. A 130 volt bulb will last quite a bit longer running on 115 volts than a "normal" bulb will.

Another option  is to wire 2 "normal" bulbs in series. This means that they are each running on only about 60 volts. They will be somewhat dim, but will still make a bit more than 1/4 of their rated output each, so for instance a pair of 60 watt bulbs wired in series will make about 20 watts each, or 40 watts total. A duplex outdoor light fixture works well for pulling this off... Just wire the two sockets in series rather than in parallel and stick in a pair of 60 watt light bulbs and you will be in business.  That is the method that I use and I have not changed a light bulb in  15 years since I wired it up that way.

Another method is to wire a suitable diode in series with a single light bulb. This will effectively drop the applied voltage in half and drop the power to slightly over 1/4 of the rated power.

Sadly, incandescent bulbs are getting harder to find, so if you wanna try a light bulb heater, buy some spare bulbs up now before they are no longer available.

[Mason Stillwell]

Thanks all for the information. My safe was built and bought in 1995. I cannot blame the safe and I really like it.

So now off to find that knockout plug and order me a golden rod .

thanks again to one fine bunch of Friends !

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Hope this all helps, Mason!  Rusty guns are a crime against Man & Nature ... 'specially if it isn't really your fault!

[Mason Stillwell]

Just put in order for a Golden Rod. Got it at Midway USA. I like those folks.

Should be here in a day or two.

Mason (happy camper) Stillwell

[Steel Horse Bailey]

That's where my GoldenRod came from.