C&B Pistol

Started by Mason Stillwell, April 22, 2011, 09:43:35 PM

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Mako

#40
December 07, 2011, 05:52:33 PM
Quote from: WaddWatsonEllis on December 07, 2011, 05:07:30 PM
Okay Mako,

I really have a challenge for you ....The serial number is E57XXX ... which is listed on the frame just in front of the trigger guard
(but not ON the trigger guard!)

The left side of the frame has a square with BI inside of it: forward of that is a  "PN with a wreath over it; then foremost is a coat of arms with a small wreath above it.

The barrel has a crest with a wreath on it on the right side; foremost is a coat of Arms with a wreath above it.

Finally, on top of the octagonal barrel is marked HARTFORD CT MODEL


WaddWatson,
Well none of those are the manufacturers marks, they are all either proof marks or the date code.  You need to look on the barrel extension, under the loading lever etc.

The "BI" in the square is a 1997 date code.   The wreaths and "coats of arms" are proof house identifiers.

I have a pair of Uberti '60s made in '07 where the date code is so washed out it took me looking at it a couple of years to find t.  They even got over stamped.  The boxes and "CB" codes were so shallow and smooth with the serial number stamped over them I had to use a microscope and polarized light to confirm it was actually  "CB".

So look all over the frame and the barrel assembly for the manufactures logo.

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Fingers McGee

#41
December 07, 2011, 07:11:06 PM
The Hartford models were sold by EMF in 1997.  They were made by Armi San Marco.  Somewhere on the barrel it will say something like "ASM Blackpowder only .36 cal made in Italy" or "SM Blackpowder only .36 cal made in Italy"  The ASM and SM reflect Armi San Marco manufacture.  There may even be an intertwined ASM logo on the bottom of the frame.

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - L - TG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
Founding Member - Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Member - Southern Missouri Rangers;
NRA Patron Life: GOA; CCRKBA; SAF; SV-114 (CWO4 ret); STORM 327

"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

WaddWatsonEllis

#42
December 07, 2011, 07:15:53 PM
I took the 'ramrod' off my gun ... under the 'ram' I found the numbers 'XXX', which means that I guess that barrel was made for the pistol ... it is the last three numbers in the serial #...

And, not on the underside of the gun, but the bottom angle of the octagon, is the markings SM BLACK POWDER .44CAL ** MADE IN ITALY

So, unless the SM stands for San Marcos (as in ARMI San Marcos), I still own the 'Gun with No Name' ...
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

WaddWatsonEllis

#43
December 07, 2011, 07:32:13 PM
Thanks Mako and Fingers,

It looks like I have a 97 EMF/Armi San Marcos 'gun-that-never-was'... it is somewhat embarrassing to have a pistol and not even know  who made it.

The gun was sold to me used as a 'Pietta' (and Pietta even said it was their serial number), so I had no knowledge of the history of the weapon ... it is nice to know what I have.

I think that one of the nicest things about buying a used gun is that it is like it was gunsmith-ed from all the rounds put through it ... or who knows? Perhaps it WAS gunsmith-ed  the past?

All I know is that it is one of the slickest guns that I have ever fired ... even if it is blanks that I am firing most of the time!

My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Mako

#44
December 07, 2011, 09:49:28 PM
Quote from: WaddWatsonEllis on December 07, 2011, 07:15:53 PM

And, not on the underside of the gun, but the bottom angle of the octagon, is the markings SM BLACK POWDER .44CAL ** MADE IN ITALY

So, unless the SM stands for San Marcos (as in ARMI San Marcos), I still own the 'Gun with No Name' ...

Yep it was made by Armi San Marco (not San Marcos, those are towns in California and Texas).  

Fingers shows one of the logos you might encounter on an ASM, see the triangular shape on the upper left of the frame right before the barrel lug?


You can see it better on this version of the logo because it separates the "M".  They both have the letters  "A", "S" and "M".


Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

WaddWatsonEllis

#45
December 07, 2011, 10:42:29 PM
Mako,

I wish my little first-generation camera had such macro capability ... but short of taking the pistol and stripping it, all the stampings I find are the ones I have listed ... but now at least I know what to look for ... *S*

My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Mako

#46
December 07, 2011, 11:43:12 PM
Waddwatson,
I don't think you will find a logo.  The SM you found is probably it especially if it was made for EMF, I've seen other ones without logos.  But, it may be lurking some where.  With Italian reproductions you can never say never...

Regards,
Mako

A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

WaddWatsonEllis

#47
December 08, 2011, 05:13:42 AM
Mako,

I am quite happy just knowing the gun's history ... as I had mentioned, as a docent I get allot of questions about the history of the pistol, and I have always felt a little lame about being so at a loss for it's maker ....

Thanks again!
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Fingers McGee

#48
December 08, 2011, 12:27:48 PM
Here's another view of a frame with the double line ASM logo.  It's from a Walker

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - L - TG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
Founding Member - Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Member - Southern Missouri Rangers;
NRA Patron Life: GOA; CCRKBA; SAF; SV-114 (CWO4 ret); STORM 327

"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

wildman1

#49
December 08, 2011, 07:28:15 PM
Looks like mine. WM
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

WaddWatsonEllis

#50
December 08, 2011, 07:45:45 PM
Fingers.

Is that the left side of your Walker just below the cylinder on the frame itself, with the end of the forward end of the trigger guard that looks like a flange of metal just below the 'body ' of the frame? I  apologize for the terminology ...
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Fingers McGee

#51
December 08, 2011, 10:28:26 PM
Quote from: WaddWatsonEllis on December 08, 2011, 07:45:45 PM
Fingers.

Is that the left side of your Walker just below the cylinder on the frame itself, with the end of the forward end of the trigger guard that looks like a flange of metal just below the 'body ' of the frame? I  apologize for the terminology ...

Yep.  Your terminology is just fine btw.
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
SASS Regulator 28654 - L - TG; NCOWS 3638
AKA Man of many Colts; Diabolical Ken's alter ego; stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman/Pistoleer; Rangemaster
Founding Member - Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Member - Southern Missouri Rangers;
NRA Patron Life: GOA; CCRKBA; SAF; SV-114 (CWO4 ret); STORM 327

"Cynic:  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees thing as they are, not as they should be"  Ambrose Bierce

WaddWatsonEllis

#52
December 08, 2011, 11:59:58 PM
Fingers,

I just checked again ... there are no ASM marks on the gun ... perhaps because it was being sold by EMF>

Or perhaps the gun was started in the defarb process at some time ... that would account for the A not being present with the SM just before the .44 Cal on the octagonal barrel...

Dunno ... it is kind of a mystery ....
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Mako

#53
December 09, 2011, 01:23:05 AM
WaddWatson,
Go back and read a few posts back, we told you that it might be marked "SM",  that is more common than "ASM" if it doesn't have a logo.  Like I said earlier, I didn't expect you would find a logo after you found the "SM".  I think your journey is complete. Well except for your enjoyment shooting it...

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES
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