C&B Pistol

[Mason Stillwell]

I have a navy style pistol . It is in 44 caliber and has the ratchet loading lever.

The Serial # E**904 is stamped into the cylinder. No Name on pistol.  Just some proof marks.

I checked my other colt style cap and ball pistols and none have this serial number stamped into the cylinder.

This is unusual  , right  ??

[StrawHat]

Maybe!  I have a Dragoon with the serial number on the cylinder and a Walker so marked.  I will look at my smaller revolvers and see but I do not believe the serial is on the cylinder on any of the 1860s, or 61s that I have.

[litl rooster]

I have one of the so called Navy styled here that has Proof marks on cylinder but no serial numbers. They are at Normal colt places frame etc.

[Mako]

Mason and all,
I'm home sick this morning instead of shooting with my pards so I'm a bit grumpy and maybe my brain isn't working right.  I'm having a hard time understanding what y'all are talking about.  Can someone answer the following for me, and et's make sure we all agree on what we are talking about.

• What is a "Navy Style" pistol? Do you mean:
  
  
  
  • Octagonal barrel
  • Non-rebated cylinder
  • Navy size grips
  • Some other feature?
• What is a "ratcheting lever" are you referring to a Creeping Style lever (Colt's terms) 'a la the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy model as well as the 1862 Police?
• I'm assuming we are talking about a reproduction here, is that correct?

If we are talking about an original, Colt's marked them just about everywhere with the serial number.  This is a picture of a 4 Screw 1860 that shows numbers on the barrel, frame, trigger guard and cylinder in the same shot.



Like I said I'm sorry if I come off a bit grumpy (that's the word my wife is using for me right now)  I just want to help, but I'm not sure what we are talking about.

Regards,
Mako

[Mason Stillwell]

Mako you have always been a huge help to me. It is a copy not original. The lever is a creeping one . Sorry for the wrong terminology . It has a round barrel and in your photo where it says colts patent it has the serial number.


I will try to post a photo.

Thanks for all  you help. I'll get back to you in a minute

[Mason Stillwell]

My camera is not very good. so the photos leave something to be desired . The cylinder one if you open with a photo program you can just make out where the serial # is.


This pistol has the longest grip frame I have ever saw. sticks down below my fingers. I always put the little finger under the end of the grip when shooting. this one I cannot do that with.



Just different I think.

Thanks for looking .

Mason

[Mako]

Mason,
Based on the photos and the grip shape it looks suspiciously like an Armi San Marco 1860 Army model.  The Army grip by any manufacturer is longer than the Navy grips.  If you haven't ever handled one before it does feel different.

Is there any stamping in the area under the loading lever?

No problem about the terminology I just wanted to understand what we were talking about.  As I said there were three models with the creeping lever, the 1860 Army which was the original, then the 1861 Navy the following year and then the 1862 Police model.

I prefer the Army grip for just the reason you have mentioned, I can get all four fingers on the grip unlike the Navy grip size which was later carried over to the Colt's S.A.A.

So in short the reason it looks different from a Navy model is that it is in fact an Army model, which happens to be my favorite revolver for CAS.  It is a four screw 1860 Army model with the standard "rebated" cylinder, the only question now is of who manufactured it.

Congratulations you now have one of the finest and best looking revolvers ever designed.  If you prefer a shorter grip, then the 1861 Navy (.36 caliber) is a beautiful and great gun as well.  Or you can do as others have done and put a Navy length grip on an !860.  There is an ongoing thread about this on STORM where I posted some pictures of first year manufactured 1860s from Colt's with the Navy grips (they actually have a brass grip back strap on the as well, the 1860s normally had an iron back strap).

Look here:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,37610.msg480302.html#msg480302

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Mason,
I'm going to post a few pictures of Colt's pattern reproduction pistols for your viewing pleasure and to help with identification.

Let's start withe what are now commonly called the "Navy" models.  Colt's actually called them Belt Pistols and the Navy nomenclature may have began internally at Colt's because at Samuel Colt's initial venture a "large" order for the .36 caliber Paterson revolvers and rifles were sold to the new Texas Navy.  Many of these were transferred to the Texas Rangers and the mythical status of the Colt's revolvers began.  Personally I think it's because of the roll engraving that originally appeared on the 1851 that depicted a Naval battle between the Texas Navy and forces fighting for Mexico(actually British sailors fighting as mercenaries) at the Battle of Campeche.  This led to the 1851s being called Navy models, the other revolvers had other scenes.  In 1860 Colt's repeated the Battle of Campeche engraving on the Army model, but since they were designed to the U.S. Army RFQ and specs they were called Army Models.  At that point most pistols in .44 were called "Army" models and pistols in .36 caliber were called Navy models.  This carried over to the Remington models as well.

This is the original design of the 1851 (Navy), notice the square "dragoon style" trigger guard.




This is the 1851 with the more common and later rounded trigger guard.



Those both have the older loading lever linkage common to all of Colt's pistols with a loading lever until 1860.  Oddly enough there was one more design in 1862 called the 1862 Navy model which was basically a smaller five shot version of the 1851.

These are the improved "Navy model" of 1861.  I have shown both a more common brass grip frame and the "London Model" iron frame (so called because the London Armory put out more iron grip frames).  It was an option at any Colt's Armory. The 1861 revolvers had the streamlined barrel of the 1860 Army design and the Creeping Loading Lever.  Note that all of the Navy Models normally came with the shorter "Navy" style grip.





A word here about designations, there are a lot of made up terms to differentiate the different models from the current manufacturers of reproductions.  You will commonly see the brass framed 1861s or even an 1860 being called a "civilian model,"  that is a fabrication.  They also tend to call 4 screw variants of the 1860s and the 1861s "Military Models" or more commonly just differentiate the brass grip frame or 3 screw models as "civilian" models.   We'll talk more about that with the 1860s.

These are the 1860 Army models.  They were then what the "J" framed model 36 Chief's special was to the .38 special. Colt's put a larger cylinder on the 1851 size Belt Pistol frame.  Up until that time the .44s were all Walker or Dragoon size.  This was a radical departure in design partially made possible because of improvements in steel making.  Look at the photos and you will see the step in the cylinder and the cut on the frame to allow the cylinder to fit.  Other than the frame cut the 1851/1861 frames and the 1860 are for all practical purposes "identical."  

Also note these pistols have the longer "Army Model" grip.  That was a specification from the U.S. Army (cavalry) because they wore gauntlets and the smaller Navy size frames were a bit tight and short.  Up until that point they had primarily been using Colt's Dragoons which have an even different grip.  If you have ever handled an older Ruger Black Hawk or a first model Vaquero that grip was modeled on the Colt's Dragoon grip.  While it is shorter than the Army model grip it has a larger girth.  Because of the frame size Colt's was limited to changing the girth too much and the added length satisfied the Army board testing the new pistols.





The bottom 1860 is called by some the "Civilian Model" because it doesn't have the cutouts on the recoil shields or the two extra screws per side to facilitate the attachment of a shoulder stock.  Colt's actually later dispensed with the two extra screws and in some cases you see frames with and without the recoil shield cuts.  So there are "3 screw" models with and without shield cuts.  The stocks weren't very popular or very practical.  They seemed like a good idea but can be dangerous to use.  There is also an all brass grip framed version some call the "civilian brass frame Army model,"  I guess that's okay since the models provided to the Army appear to all be iron back strap models with 4 screws and the shield cuts.  There were some different variants submitted for evaluation, but for the most part the martially marked 1860s are like the first one shown above.

Since I mentioned the 1862 Police that had the creeping lever I wanted to show that to you as well.  Remember I said earlier that the 1860 was sort of like the S&W 5 shot small frame revolvers?  This one is really a 19th century analog to the M36 S&W.  They took an 1849 frame (.31 caliber) and added a 5 shot .36 caliber cylinder to it and used the rebated concept of the 1860 to make it fit.  The '62 Police had cylinder lightening flutes but the 1862 Pocket Navy looked like a cross between an 1851 and an 1860.  I guess it is the "precursor" to the "1851" .44 caliber pistols that Pietta has been producing.  I am not a fan of the 1851 in .44 caliber because it is blurring the nature of a reproduction.  I know there will be those who will opine that most of our modern pistols are not in the correct original calibers, that is true but they aren't an imaginary kludge of designs that never existed until Pietta got  wild hair...  The caliber divergence is just the product of necessity when it comes to available ammunition.

These are the 1862s which are both 5 shot .36 caliber cylinders on the smaller 1849 frame originally in .31 caliber




have fun,
Mako

[Mason Stillwell]

For me the 1862 is beautiful . I will use the word sleek. smooth lines and just easy on the eye. My heart tells me  that in  this style pistol it is the 1851 for me. Of course I don't have one like an original in 36 cal. All me are in 44.

I do really like the remington style pistols  and shoot them in matches lots.

On the pistol  we are talking about it has original nipps. I took it to a match at Page and it fired the complete match. No cap jams no misfires. I did not have to go around and hit a nipp a second time to make it fire. First time every time. I did use # 10 caps.

I will have to get Saber River to change the sights for me like he did on my 51's. They look like something that one would have had done back in the day and I can see them. The little post or that little ramp front sight is way beyond my eyes seeing them. LOL


Thanks Mako.
How do you post such great Photos ?

[Forty Rod]

1862 pistols are both 5 shooters.

[Mako]

Mason,
I agree the '62 Police does have a certain appeal to it because of the cylinder flutes.  However, it is basically a "pocket pistol" or a waist band gun.  With a larger 6 round cylinder and the belt model frame it would have probably been Samuel Colt's favorite.  He is said to have liked the 1861 Navy model best of all.

There was an earlier version of the 1860 which had fluted cylinders, not in the sense that is common today, but these flutes went the entire length of the cylinder.  Flutes have always been there for lightening the pistol.  I have read two different accounts as to why Colt's dropped the flutes on the 1860s.  One talked about a weaker cylinder the other just about the practicalities of manufacture.  Which ever it was the Army chose the non-fluted cylinder.  However the fluted cylinders were produced in small quantities and originals survive today.

This is a Uberti fluted 1860



The secret to good pictures and graphics is to use an image repository site like Photobucket.com.  It's also better for this site because it doesn't load down the CAS City servers with big images, they actually reside over on Photobucket in my case.

The free storage over there is plenty for what I post, I use a different site for my work images because they are very large.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

1860 pistols are both 5 shooters.

Nope,

Six shooters all...

~Mako

[Mason Stillwell]

Thank You Mako !!!

Valuable information  for sure. I'll post more on my Pistol as the summer goes by. I think I will use it lots this summer.


Mason

[Forty Rod]

Nope,

Six shooters all...

~Mako

Yep.  I meant 1862 and have corrected it.  I know better but my typing finger doesn't.

1860 in the 3 screw frame is my favorite percussion revolver.  It just looks and feels right to me.

[Mako]

Yep.  I meant 1862 and have corrected it.  I know better but my typing finger doesn't.

1860 in the 3 screw frame is my favorite percussion revolver.  It just looks and feels right to me.

Forty Rod,
I had a sneaking suspicion you meant  '62, but since I had already said it in the description of the pictures I wasn't 100% sure.

You are so right about the 3 Screw 1860 without the recoil shield cuts.  In fact I love them so much I know the Cimarron part number by heart...CA047     I have 3 pairs of them. 

~Mako

[Forty Rod]

Got a pair of Ubertis last year with nickel plated back straps and trigger guards.  Probably looking at Tru-Ivory grips some time in the future and a pair of  Ten Wolves holsters and belt.

Should be a maaaaahvelous match for my Henry!   

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hello,

I too have a Gun That Never Was; a .44 Cal '51 Colt Navy

Like the gun in queston, there is no maker's Mark .... although on the 'right hand' side of the gun is a:

1.) Square with a 'B' inside of it

2.) Ahead of that is a 'PN' with a star above it

3.) Ahead of that is a crest with a flower above it

Serial Number is E XX544

Right Side:



Left Side:



Oh Yes and on the top of the Barrel aft (i.e near the cylinder) it is stamped "Hartford CT Model"

I would surely like to know what I have ....

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Addendum,

I forgot to mention that on the barrel, just ahead of the 'wedge' on the right side of the barrel are:

1.) A partially stamped crest with what appears to be a flower above it

Just above the Loading Lever on the right die of the barrel it reads "SM Black powder Only Cal  44 Made In Italy'
Does this mean my pistol is an (Armi) San Marcos?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi again,

I don't mean to take over this thread: but I am guessing that I have an earlier version of Mason Stillwell's pistol, so I am trying to give as much information as I can ....

Also, there was some discussion of grip szes, so I attached a pic of mine being gripped by me ...  my hands are short and stubby, and they still don't fit on my grips:

[Mason Stillwell]

Don't worry about taking over the thread. I love the information. What a great pistol.n I have some 51's . 2 with silver backstraps and steel frames. some with brass frames. The brass frames are probably the most accurate. I have large hands but the pistol in this photo I cannot get my little finger under the grip like I do with the others. I usually shoot with that little finger under the grip frame.

Later

Mason