Do converted c&b 44's have any cracking issues?

[Crow Choker]

Tornado, I was going to suggest what Raven just posted, you'll be much happier in the long run with a steel framed revolver. The frames arenot the same between 36/44's.. All '60 framed guns and the Pietta '51 in 44 caliber (steel framed)  have a stepped frame to accomodate the rebated cylinder of the 44 and I believe you need this stepped frame to accomodate the Kirst 45 converter. Thirty-six framed guns don't have the stepped frame and my guess, could be wrong, but the arbor to frame distance may not accomadate a 45 Kirst cylinder. Raven could tell ya more.  You can use the barrel of the Pietta '51 44, unless you like the looks of the 60 style.  Check all the 'angles' as you're doing before ya lay yer greenbacks down for the final product. Yers' CC

[Mako]

Yea I looked at but the parts only, but when I compared it to buying a complete gun, I could sell the extra pieces or make another "platypus" with the remaining parts and sell it.  I haven't decided if I should get the brass '51 for $150 for the grips(maybe keep the barrel also) and selling the frame and cylinder.  Or get the steel '51 civilian for $230 and use the grip and the frame(no fitting issues) with the '60 barrel on it and parting out the rest of the '60.  It sounds silly to buy a whole gun for just a barrel but the barrel cost $125 and the whole gun is just $200.
There is a difference beteen the .36 and the .44 frame isn't there?  I couldn't use the .36 steel frame '51, right?

Tornado,
I am posting an image of the only difference.  The area shown in red on the 1860 Army frame has been cleared for the Rebated Cylinder of the .44s.  Otherwise the frames are "identical."  That is of course in the design parameters, there are manufacturing differences inherent to any product, even within the same model type.



Regards,
Mako

[Long Johns Wolf]

To add some rumors & further facts to this interesting topic:
According to my sources Uberti stalled the Thuer project because of issues related to the (reloading) of their specially lathed Thuer cases they wished to provide with the pistols and the conversion kits. Rumor has it that it was the plan to use regular C&B caps as primers for these Uberti Thuer cases. This did did not function reliably. In addition there friction only did not work as anticipated due to the thickness of the walls of these cases.
Colt Army Richards conversions: if memory serves a few specimens are known with barrels of the Navy 1861 RM profile ("bow" profile).
This Navy 1861 barrel profile was regularly used on the few "Mystery" Army conversions allegedly made by gunsmiths South of the border during the mid 1875s.
Long Johns Wolf

[Raven]

LJW,

They way they designed the cases, Caps were definately going to have problems Loaded round also would not seat completely in the chambers. Biggest problem dosen't seem to be keeping them in, it's getting them out if you use enough force to seat the cartridge in the first place. The cartridge problem is easy to fix... use a modified Centerfire Case
We have dealt with these problems with our project.
Another problem Uberti had was cracking at the pivot holes on the ejector parts... very delicate.
The biggest problem that we see is that each and every one must be hand fitted, which IMO would have caused major problems for Uberti selling KITS. Also was going to be a pretty pricey kit as it would need to include the converter, a loading lever rammer, reloading tools and the cartridges. I think the biggist issue for Uberti was that the Thuer was not economicly viable. Hell shooters complain about the price of any of the Italian guns and the Thuer very likely would have been the most expensive pistol they ever produced... more expensive than the LeMatt easily.
We will not be selling KITS. The first batch when ready will be installed on 2nd and 3rd gen Colts. We allready have a collection of Colts for this purpose. After that we will install them on customer guns. It will be a Limited production project, we don't really feel there is the demand for a large production run. It's more of a hobby project for Walt and I as we have both wanted one

Raven

[Long Johns Wolf]

Yes, Raven, these Thuers are fun to shoot.
We are using cases made from modified .44 mag cases.
But one has to accept the shortcomings of the system as my pard Bumble Bee with his which was originally an old Uberti Army and I with my Centaure Thuer can testify.
I guess it is a good idea NOT to sell them as kit guns but only complete guns. Are you going to offer Navy and pocket versions as well or just the Armies?
The US Ordnance Dept was right to reject them after their trial as official Army pistols in the early 1870s.
Long Johns Wolf

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The Fox Creek Kid keeps telling me that there was a toolroom design 1861 Richards 1st model as depicted in McDowells book, but I have refrained from telling him it is actually a "bastard" design as well because even though it has a floating firing pin and the ring with the overhanging lip, it doesn't have the ring mounted sight or even a gate... ...

Yes, I know that, but since I know you have the McDowell book I didn't feel the need to make a National Geographic documentary pointing that out. 

[Mako]

Yes, I know that, but since I know you have the McDowell book I didn't feel the need to make a National Geographic documentary pointing that out. 

Well since the images seem to make you uncomfortable, I'll have to resort to song.

I wrote a song about it and it goes something like this...

[The Swede]

What's up with this cracking issue stuff? I don't have an Open Top (Repro remingtons), but I am thinking about getting one that is available locally. It is in .45 Colt.

Also, I have heard about a few having issues with barrel wedge being stuck? Is this a common problem?

Swede

[rifle]

 I'd be concerned with more than the  fit in dealing with fitting Navy Grips to an Army revolver that......would be more than just the plain arse pain in the arse converting from one to the other since......I've never had much lucki in interchanging them. I've never had them simply swap out.
I'd probably just cut an Army gripframe(backstrap/trigger guard)  already fitted on a gun to be shorter to get a Navy size. You know cut..to shorten.....then braise it back together and file finish it. Naturally a spacer epoxied inside the one piece grips would be needed but that actually helps fit the wood more easily.
I'd be more concerned with the SHAPE of the Navy grip swapping out PIETTA parts. The Pietta Navy grip is the most ill shaped ugly of any Navy grip on the market. Plain arse UGLY. Not only "overly flared" ugly but "shootin ugly" since the over flare makes shooters point shoot HIGH. Makes you miss targets.
A person could get a better shaped Navy grip by shortening an Army grip. Takes some braising but in the long run it's more viable and gets a nicer shaped grip in the end.

The cracking of the barrels of the Richards Masons and Open Tops seems to have been addressed since the later barrels are thicker like they got the tolerance right and also the cylinders are thicker by about .024 inch  probably .....it seems tome anyway with the small sampling I've seen.
I think staying away from the earlier guns and knowing the serial numbers to look for may help. Also going for the 44's and the 38's instead of the 45's may be a help. Even with the 45's being thicker in the important areas they would still be thinner at the forcing cone mill out and the cylinder notches.
I have a Richards Mason in 45 Scholfield I bought "as is" since it had the conversion plate indented with the shape of primers. Sign of extreme excess pressure right? I changed out the conversionn plate with gate to a new one and fitted the pistol proper. Bottomed the arbor so the wedge fit was consistant which makes the cylinder gap consistant and all. Timed the action which was a pain in the arse the way the half cock notch is ground in right up to and slightly into the hammers cam. The bolts  leg wants to exit it's contact with the hammers cam at that point. That can exapperate timing the gun and keeping the bolt head hitting "not prematurely" back onto the cylinder.
Anyway what I was initially going to explain was.......the gun having the sign of excessive extreme pressure....like some dummy re-loaded cartridges extremely hot for that type gun......you know...the primers shape indented into the backpplate around the firing pin hole stillhad a barrel good to go and no crack at the bottom outside of the forcing cone. The barrel stood up to what would have been very hot re-loads fired in the gun. The barrel at the mill out under the forcing cone was thicker than the ones I've seen that were cracked. Like the tolerance to that mill out has been tweaked in to be proper and not too thin.
Anyway this gun I have stood up to extreme pressure almost everywhere. The previous owner must be inexperienced in reloading ammo.
The problem that cropped up though was the cylinder notches got little square holes in them showing brass thru the holes. The cases extracted fine while I was shooting and unawares that the holes had gotten there in the notches. 45 Scholfield chambering. Cool rounds to shoot but...fat rounds. Like a 45 Colt shortened.
Anyway in the old days I read the same thing happebed and people just still used the guns the way they were till the cases got too difficult to extract because the holes grew in size. That's why Colt started making new cylinders for the conversions of the Army.
Well I got a new cylinder to fit to the gun and it measures .024 inch wider at the rear of the cylinder where it's rebated. I guess that problem may have been addressed as well in the newer cylinders. There's two sizes. The later ones being  wider. The cylinder that broke thru(from extreme high pressure probably from reloads) measures 1.611 at the diameter of the rebate. The new cylinder measures 1.635 at the rebated part of the cylinder. Thicker notches also by that amount I'd assume.
Anyway if a person was to buy a new gun or an older used gun in 45 cal. they could measure the rebate of the cylinder and visually check the thickness of the bottom of the mill out in the forcing cone of the barrel. I can just look at that and see whether or not that is thick enough.
By the way....I used reloads to test the gun but not extreme excessive pressure reloads. I used wheel weight bullets that were 45ACP types......220gr. weight.....5.4 gr. S1000Accurate powder and winchester primers. The minimum for that bullet in 230gr. was 5.3 if I remember right. That was a reload well within the "COW BOY" power. Approximated the blackpowder loads almost. A little hotter than black would have been I'd guess.
One thing I thunk is....using pure lead bullets and blackpowder in reloads for the Open Tops and Richards Masons doesn't hurt a thing.  Makes for more authentic reloads too and......the blackpowder loaded with a thin lube pill right on the powder  makes for a gun that will shoot over 200 rounds without dragging from fouling.
I assume that getting an Open Top or Richards Mason may be safe since it seems to me,guessing from a small sampling,that the problems have been addressed in the newer guns or newer parts like barrels and cylinders.
I obtained four or five barrels to put on Open Tops that I have bought with cracked barrels and....all the barrels have thicker areas at the mill out to the bottom of the forcing cones.  I'll have to take a little off there and turn down the cylinders front bushing some to get the barrels on the guns. Hopefully just turn the cylinders bushing some. I may get industrious and make some San Marcos type cylinder bushings that don't need the forcing cone milled on the outside and are not integral with the cylinders. Those would really need some lube pills in the cartridges to contend with the fouling getting on the arbor and in the cylinders center hole. Smokeless would be fine in that scenario though.
Anyway I'd recomment to buy a 44 Open Top or Richards Mason in the first place even though......I've seen cracked barrels on 44's too. Possibly from previos owners reloading too hot but I couldn't say. Supposedly factory ammo was used in them but.....who really knows but the previous owners.
I wouldn't be afraid to buy a new 45 cal. Open Topor Richards Mason now that I can measure the cylinders rebate to check that and visually check the bottom of the forcing cone. I would go for the 44's though and feel god about it since the originals were 44's. I believe 44's would be better. Better in lever actions because of the thicker cases of the 45 Colt causes blow back with blackpowder,if a person was inclined to use it, and with the Richards and The Open Tops because the 44's are more viable and more authentic to them.
Anywhooo.....I recommend that a bunch of you go out and buy new Open Tops and Richards Masons and if you get disillusioned in them you can sell them to me real cheap because I enjoy fixin them up and making them Proper. I really am enarmoured to the Open Tops and the Richards Masons. They are just plain arse beautiful. I'm going to hang one on the wall of my den to see all the time.

[Mako]

What's up with this cracking issue stuff? I don't have an Open Top (Repro remingtons), but I am thinking about getting one that is available locally. It is in .45 Colt.

Also, I have heard about a few having issues with barrel wedge being stuck? Is this a common problem?

Swede

Swede,
I'd normally just tell you to search the old posts (because we have discussed almost any issue you can think of at one time or another), but this is important so here are a couple to get you started.

Read Rifles long post it sums it up:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,27491.msg417782.html#msg417782

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35765.msg458177.html#msg458177


It's all about the forcing cones on the .45 calibers.

~Mako

[The Swede]

Thanks Mako, I actually did do a search after I posted. The reason I asked is because I have available to me if I want it. We had an outdoor show at our Range facility over the weekend. Stoeger Canada donated  some firearms for us to use. The idea was to get the public to try them out. Got some new members as a result. The guns will be sold locally as used guns, and one is an 1872 Open Top in .45 Colt. It is going to be a good deal, but I am concerned about all this talk about OT in .45.

It would be my guess that the issue is not fully resolved? I do load .45 Colt, and .44-40, but would consider buying an OT in .38, or .44 Colt if I had to.

Swede

p.s. Mako, you have a great talent for explaining things, especially with all the photos, and illustrations you use! Thank you! Rifle I thank you too!

[The Swede]

This pre-occupation with chambering everything for .45 colt is maddening! Why doe do they have to re-invent the wheel. I am enjoying .44-40, and I suppose .44 Colt would be fun to. Finding brass, and such is not to hard even here in Canuckland. It's actually harder to find guns in calibres other than .45 Colt, or .357....

Swede

[Slowhand Bob]

Not for the purist perhaps but I think the engraved Pietta '51 in 44 is the best looking new pistol in either company's line up.  They would be perfect if Pietta had equipped them with the birds head checkered grips done in black buffalo horn.  I like mine so well that I am strongly considering a second pair to send off for conversions.  Actually my favorite conversion caliber is the new 45 cowboy special or 44russian, they kinda mimic the old 44Henry rimfire which was getting old when the 44-40 and 45colt were born.   See second photo down and bottom photo to see my new pair of Piettas.    
http://home.comcast.net/~gakracker/site/?/page/MY_PERSONAL_LEATHER_/&PHPSESSID=f4737f754b0d492132a6f8fb8b121de6

[Raven]

It won't be long and we will have Colt type cylinders chambered for .45 Cowboy Special. As a bonus they will chamber .45 ACP as well......No Plus P's 

Keep your eyes open they will be on the web site in the next couple of months
http://www.kirstkonverter.com

Raven

[Slowhand Bob]

Sounds great, I actually had two six shot ACP converters at one time but sold them.  I use the Cowboy Special in my Remingtons but am somewhat leaning towards the idea of making my Colt style revolvers into 44 Russian shooters, which would require sleeving the barls.  Since the '66 YB is going to be in Russian, it would cut down on confusion at the loading table.  The short 44s and 45s look almost identical BUT both make extremely easy shooting and reloading bp rounds with a 160gr bullet!

[Raven]

Slowhand,

leaning towards the idea of making my Colt style revolvers into 44 Russian shooters, which would require sleeving the barls.

Lining .44 barrels is problematic. In order to get one in there the liner wall must be Very Thin. You can't buy them that thin so you would need to turn a liner down on the lathe, which is hard to do because of the liner flexing and again because of the thin walls.....You end up with a wall thickness of about .010

We line a lot of barrels...we just won't line .44 barrels in ..44 calibers.

If you find someone who will, let me know maybe I can learn some new trix  

Raven

[Long Johns Wolf]

The Belgian Centaure Armies have a greater barrel dia compared to Italian and 2nd and 3rd gen Colt 1860 C&Ballers, hence installing a .44 cal liner (.429 dia) there is less tricky.
Long Johns Wolf

[Slowhand Bob]

I think that my decision is made, eliminate the 44s and use the funds to finance conversions in 45 for the cowboy special round.  Since everything I shoot is with bp, it only makes since to keep my match guns for crossing over from Frontiersman to Frontier Cartridge as close as possible.  An added bonus would be that the cartridge conversions allows dry firing practice, wanting badly amongst cap and ball shooters.   Not sure how I will elect to replace the .44 special Yellow Boy but the 44-40 Henry can fill in nicely with the old style pistols until something else presents itself.  I had even purchased a short carrier to convert the '66 for Russian but it can be used for a later conversion to 45special perhaps.

As I understand it, my pair of .44 RM Conversions were a part of Cimarons first boatload into the country and I had them rechambered from 44Colt to 44spec.  Would these be a part of the stress cracking issue you guys are talking about?  I assume the fact that they have never been used with smokeless has spared them so far but I would need to pass along any warnings since I now plan sell them?

[Slowhand Bob]

Stripped my Cimmaron Conversions down to the last screw yesterday and gave them a super cleaning and did not see any stress cracks around the barl at the forcing cone.  I had installed ER grips on them and used this opportunity to put the orriginal Army sized ones back on.  On one of the two, the replacement grips actually fit closer than the original and the other substitute grip actually fit as well as the original.

[Tornado]

I bet y'all thought I didn't follow through with this project .  Well here is were I am so far:

An 1860 Colt by Pietta from Cabelas, when they were on sale:


Off to Gunbroker with these parts:


Off with her head.  Now it is a 6 3/4" barrel:


Smoothed the barrel lug a little:


Waiting to save up money for 45cal Kirst Converter:


Postman came today!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AK0tBpexHoMpjS-3n4zZna3YfJ33q_Ls0tW4F5qpv22uh1I7UNimvnppNg352rxZ1qMTXT8ViqmvxVdosagV98fp2UzpYHIhqoz8qK1uEDE2Pcdj-U5t1pb-hIf8El7bCXcTo1F14CbUtPVy1IGeT4WBf3W5a_z26nkrP0WJfMFcWXhVSnXZkiMqLb6KHZ6BI4YwrZyBW8_IH8MGSI_omF9Wcizfm9LcF3ppRm9iFA52lr3dgdh5pb3XqzWxEpJTI9pZtUaZRE0kz2tAcaN65e4oZQV0-_zN0iZcqu5ASE4-XgiWrIHPPVzKkKdll1v_D_YEe08DFu8O7MMFsnBGPE5NGpD7QtPjUd8kd_Xx8tMaZ8rF7A-nHKSBYtOntaP9Vrp8-Y2BgDVe8RACpe6W2k9WLJfruih-sW7hH9K77dJq2ojfYRD-PTgz4t2LNpLYc908NafLpE3BWsFpEK4HtUmkIqXFLaOtvLHAIw_ohmfDA7FLhvQuylpuCo94pgIYQ7p9KiXdhKr4hwIJywvo8ulUqHwxGH1iS_khU_1_Lf0MMThpLWYQwlA71yo1AJnJ0ANOkCy9QB3vyaEuMZl6fkBpZcj0WGuxASs22ihUYy3RYJSDmSI=w624-h468-no

Well,  the timing is off some because the hammer will only go back so far.  I will grind the loading gate next.  I may try to fix the timing problem or just send it off.  I was going to have an old trader's token for the front sight and an action job done anyway.
By the way this all new to me, so if I can do it, anyone can!