Holster design and short arms...

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

So I have this really sweet 1860 army reproduction that has an 8" barrel.  I thought I would like a strong side, butt to the back holster and have tried designing or deciding what design I would like. 

So that brings me to my question:  How low do you need to wear the holster to get an 8" barrel out of the holster?

Seems I have really short arms  because it looks like I would need a Buscadero style belt with the bottom of the holster just above my knees to get this 1860 out of the holster.  Do people actually carry one in this manner or do they all get carried Cavalry style?

[Slowhand Bob]

Actually short arms just mean the holster will be better mounted higher for you.  What I am about to ecommend is what works for me and your mileage may vary, remember opinions are like noses  and everbodies got one.   Though I have been doing pretty good lately I do have a touch of the arthritis in my hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders which has at times made drawing a bit of a pain, literally.  The solution that has worked for me kinda makes since in my mind as to the mechanics of a draw.  I prefer my holsters to position the grip  moderately high at about the bottom of the elbow and slightly forward on the hip.  This gives me a feel index at the arms bend where the gun touches with the arms dangling.  If the holster has a good muzzle forward cant, the draw is kinda like a piston rod movement, wrist almost locked straight, with the elbow rotating back naturally and the shoulder joint is also rotating rather than trying to dislocate upwards with this draw.  It is painless for the joints and has the gun moving naturally towards that high center chest and up to eye level presentation that is so popular with the top handgun shooters now days.  Compare that to a straight up draw from a straight drop holster which requires the wrist to be broken backwards and all other joints to try and progress upto and under the arm pit for much of the draw stroke.   Longer barls actually tend to crowd the latter draw even more so.

[KidTerico]

As SB said everyone has  a opinion. At my older age and I am very short person I have a lot of pain in my joints also. I do not have good movement but I dont agree with Bob at all. What works for me is a very low slung rig. I couldnt wear it at all like Bob can. I guess every one has to try different ways to see what works for them. I like the shoulder rig that TW made for me as good as any thing I have. I think I will talk to TW about a longer barrelled shoulder rig to see how it would work out . KT

[bedbugbilly]

On some forums . . . they'd tell you to get your "sawsall" out and shorten the barrel of that '60 Army up!     I'm tall with long arms but I hae to admit, although I love my '51 & '61 Navies, I do like "shorter barreled" versions - probably for the same reason you're talking about - an 8 inch barrel is a lot of barrel to pull out.  I guess it all boils down to what works best for you.  I hope you post some photos of what you come up with so we can all see it . . . . they probably would help the rest of us when we run across that situation.  Good luck!   

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

slowhand Bob:  I tried the waist high with this gun and could not get the gun out of the holster.  Some is possibly arm length as well as limited shoulder rotation.  I admit I had not tried it with the barrel forward so will give that a try.

KT, the low slung rig is what has worked best for me at this point.  If I put enough drop in the holster it looks sort of strange.  The next option and one I have often used is the belt hanging low on the strong hand side.  Not fond of the Buscadero as I change weight up and down 50 pounds so would need three or four rigs to keep up with the size change.

BBB, Shortening the barrel actually was one of the first things that crossed my mind and still on the table.  I grew up with shorter barrels and they just feel more natural. My next idea is to get a couple of Cabela's 1862 Army Police .36 Caliber Revolver for this style carry and keep the 1860 as a cavalry carry.

[joec]

How about a cross draw rig with say a 20° cant would work for most any gun in my opinion. I prefer the 5.5" and 4.75 myself but did have a 7.5" 1873 colt replica for awhile.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

How about a cross draw rig with say a 20° cant would work for most any gun in my opinion. I prefer the 5.5" and 4.75 myself but did have a 7.5" 1873 colt replica for awhile.

Joec thanks for the idea.  Actually the rigs I currently have for the 1860's are two reverse carry with a 20 degree cant.  I just thought I would like the conventional grip rear style, then realized I have a problem clearing the holster.

[TN Mongo]

TwoWalks,

A couple of our local shooters wear two thinner belts (like sword belts) that cross each other with a single holster on each belt.  They wear the belts so the holsters hang low without a lot of actual drop in the holster itself.  I think it's a great look and they both carry longer barreled pistols.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

TN Mongo, that is a great suggestion that I will have to consider, that Curly Bill look.  Thanks for the input.

[Slowhand Bob]

The last two pair of revolvers I purchased were the Cabellas Pietta short barl shiny 44 Navy engraved models  and the other is the blue 36 caliber '62 model with short barls.  I really like both pair but do honestly think that they must have done a bit more action work on the 44 as both feel slightly smoother than does either of my '62s.  I would buy either pair again in a heartbeat and all four guns shoot flawlessly.

Without pictures it is hard to explain the motion but when the gun is mounted just forward of center hip in what is referred to as crotch rocket carry, the elbow and shoulder rotation tends to be somewhat outward to the side of the body.  Imagine rubbing your belly below the navel with a downward from horizontal stroke (think scratching fleas).  It is a somewhat natural rotation and I can get enough of a stroke to handle the Army models without joint discomfort.  As mentioned earlier, much of my joint pain has really improved since retiring five years ago and is now most noticeable as joint stiffness. 

[Dalton Masterson]

I shoot my 1860s regularly, along with my Walker and Starr. All of them have long barrels. What I have started doing is moving the holsters forward on my belt, and angle them so that the tip of the holsters are almost at my groin. It doesnt break the 30 degree cant, and I still have way more than 2 fists apart on the belt.
This method has helped me quite a bit, but my shorter barreled versions are still faster.
DM

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Two Walks,

I feel your pain about the longer barrels. I bought double crossdraw holster and found ou the my intended club absolutely forbade double butt forward rigs of any kind.

So I turned them around to make them a douple strongside rig and it made them legal but extremely difficult to draw... the gun was actually longer than my waist-to armpit measurement ....

So I built a set of strong side holsters with a loop that was six inches longer than the original,  and raised the bucket to mke them look more 1880s and less like a 'Glenn Ford' fast draw rig ...

Here is a pic of the rig as it stands now, and the attachemento is how a Colt would look in the original rig  ...


P.S. I should state that I started with the Will Ghormley Johnny Ringo rig pattern ....

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Slowhand Bob:  This really does make a lot of sense.  I will give it a try.  The double cross draw holsters I have if reversed would hang the way you are describing.

Dalton Masterson what you are describing I believe is what Bob described, so there must be something too it for sure.  I will be giving this a try.  Will save making two new holsters and I can always find another reason to make more holsters.   

WaddWatsonEllis thanks for the picture and description.  I thought that adding that much drop would look odd but your picture proves my thinking flawed.  If my current holsters do not work, this will help me calculate the amount of drop I need to add.

Thanks too everyone for their insights, this has helped me a lot and is much appreciated.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Two Walks,

Just remember that on a loop holster, one adds on twice as much loop as one wants ... so although I added six inches to the drop, I only dropped them three inches ... and the grips rise above the belt still (slightly).

What I did was take my old holsters and played with them until I found a drop that felt comfortable, figured in the drop, doubled the length for the loop, and it just happened to work out right ....

'Course, I could have  just as easily had a major screwup on my hands and had to throw away the whole thing ....

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Two Walks,

Just remember that on a loop holster, one adds on twice as much loop as one wants ... so although I added six inches to the drop, I only dropped them three inches ... and the grips rise above the belt still (slightly).

What I did was take my old holsters and played with them until I found a drop that felg comfortable, figured in the drop, doubled the length for the loop, and it just happened to work out right ....

'Course, I could have  just as easily had a major screwup on my hands and had to throw away the whole thing ....

WWE, point well taken.  I am going to figure a way to hang my holster from the belt so it can be let down in stages until is where I want it. Then as you say, double the additional drop.  Who knows might actually work for me.  As far as "a Major Screw up", I face that at every stage from cutting out the leather to applying the finish ... One cut in stone rule for new people like me: You are going to screw up, its only a matter of when. 

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I happen to like my grips where my hands rest on them when my elbow is slightly bent backwards ... and with a little forward slant on the holsters, it makes them much easier to deal with ...

Just a thought ... you might put your pistols in the holsters and have someone (like a wife or a fellow leather worker) measure the drop ... then make a test holster in some old leather you have laying around ... try it out, see how it feels at a practice session, and if you like it, take the holster apart and use it as a template .... how is that for a run-on sentence? *G*

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I am going to figure a way to hang my holster from the belt so it can be let down in stages until is where I want it.

You could use a narrow belt (1 3/4" - 2") and just keep letting it out a notch until you have the height you find optimum. Then you can measure where the holster is compared to where it rides on the belt you normally wear and make a drop equivalent to the difference.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi Two Walks,

I think Marshall Will has got it ... especially if you put your normal pistol belt on firs and then measured top of one belt to top of the other and you would have your drop close enough that you could micro adjust with the highth of your pisol belt .... Great ideas Marshall Will Wingam!

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Marshall Will and Wad, great suggestions ... Many Thanks.

[Slowhand Bob]

The doubling for length also applies to cant also, to add 15deg you must add it on each side of the fold or insert a 30deg wedge at the fold.  Guys and guns are a personal thing and what works for one will never necessarily make another person happy.  Amonst those who shoot competitively in my area, the most common style holsters will look very much like the Kirkpatrick Long Hunter model and have considerable more drop than I like but most of those guys shoot circles around me!

When I cut down the mouth of a Slim Jim, add a filler and flare out the top of the belt loop, in my mind and personal experience it is just as fast  (for me anyway) as a competition holster and yet still retains the natural simple beauty of the original designs.  As holsters developed they simple grew from and expanded on the earlier California Slim Jims so we can always retrofit what we want from the later developments back into the original design and, to some degree, maintain the integrity of the original appearance.  Now think about it, Ill bet there were plenty of guys around in the early/middle 1800s who had short arms and long pistols and made it work.  I even think the nick name 'Shorty" must have been coined in the old west, at least that was what Marty Robins led me to believe!