1851 and 1860 Interchangeability ?

[shootfromthehip]

I know a little concerning this, but i was wondering..

I have an 1860 and if I got an 1851 barrel of .36 cal, could i buy a 1851 .36 cal cylinder to go on the 1860 grip/ hammer assembly and it go together?

How bout an 1851 cylinder swapped out in place of my 1860 cylinder only, keeping the rest of the gun 1860?

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Dear Monsieur Hip

You pose a fascinating and reasonable question, one upon which I would like to expound at length ... LOL

The frame of the basic Colt open top Cap-and-Ball Revolver (added for clarification after Reading Coffinmaker's post - thanks Coffinmaker!)  is identical betwixt the 1851 and the 1860, with the exception of the extra "step" cut out of the 1860 frame to accomodate the step in the 1860 cylinder.

In fact, the dimensions of the internals is identical to that of the Model 1873 SAA - one can drop in hammer, trigger, bolt, hand and springs from an SAA into a Pietta or ASM colt clone ( I cannot speak for the Uberti) and they function nicely. I have some older SAA parts I put in my open top for fun and discovered a smoothness in the action that I never had with the Italian parts.
Of course, the 1873 hammer is essentially useless in a C&B revolver ... unless I were to try a conversion ...  :-)

Back to your question, If the parts are of the same manufacturor,  one can swap them out to one's heart's delight, realizing of course that
a)  one wants to keep .36 barrels and .36 cylinders together, etc..... :-)
b) a .44 cylinder will not fit on a .36 frame :-)

I have for example a Pietta 1851 in .44 and a Pietta 1860 in .44. All the bits swap back and forth in my copies rather nicely. I also have an old  Pietta 1851 .36 barrel, and it fits on *my* frames fine - but I am very careful to keep it away from the .44's for obvious reasons.

Whilst the concept of an interchangable caliber revolver is rather desirous, I find that the cost of barrels are so dear that one can easily purchase a nice used complete 1851 revolver in .36 for very little more than the cost of barrel and cylinder combined.

Furthermore, the danger of accidentally putting a .36 barrel on with  a .44 cylinder is all too real .... :-(

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

[StrawHat]

The Professor has summed it up well.

Me, the only time I interchange the 1860 and the 1861s are in holsters.  They both don't fit at the same time.

[Coffinmaker]

The answer for Uberti Conversions is NO.  With a Caveat.  On the Open Top, you can change between ALL calibers, using Open Top barrels and cylinders.  On the 1851 Conversion, you can change barrel length but you cannot change between .38 and .44 as the cylinders and recoil shields are different.  The 1860 Conversion parts don't swap to either.
You can swap the 1851 barrels onto an Open Top, but you give up the rear sight.  So, you can have a .38 octagon barrel on an Open Top or a round barrel on an 1851.  .44 Conversion parts will not swap onto the Open Top.

Coffinmaker

[Mako]

Coffinmaker,
That actually isn't entirely correct.  There isn't any difference in the recoil shield and the cylinder length differences are accommodated by the rear extension of the barrel.  You can mount a '51 or '61 barrel and Cylinder on an Army model but not vice versa  (there are still issues with fit, but you have that with the '71/'72 Open Tops with the multi caliber and barrel guns some have put together.) 

I have good reverse models of  Uberti 1851, 1861 and 1860 models.  I'll post a side by side comparison of the Navy and Army models and you will see the similarities and the differences.

Regards,
Mako

[Coffinmaker]

Ah ...... 'scuse me Mako, but .... the .44 R/M Conversion cylinder/barrel assemblies do not swap to a .38 R/M frame.  Been there and tried that.  Doesn't work.

Coffinmaker

[Mako]

Here are a few screen shots.

The first has a Uberti '51 above a Uberti 1860.  The frames are "identical" except for the clearance on for the front section of the cylinder on the Army model.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Navy%20Model/NavyandArmy.png


This shot shows a Navy model Cylinder and specifically a '51 Barrel on the Army frame:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Navy%20Model/NavyonArmy.png

This is the same arrangement but in a cross section.  Here you can see some of the differences from manufacturing.  If you look at the added spacing button on the arbor you will see it doesn't go to the end of the clearance hole in the '51 barrel.  This is true with a lot of the Uberti frames.  You can't just mix and match them, more on this later.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Navy%20Model/X-Section.png

As I said the Uberti arbor to arbor hole fit is different on every pistol I have.  For instance, I have 6 Uberti 1860s and each one of them is different, even the ones with consecutive serial numbers.

This goes back to what I said about the '71/'72 Open Top Mix and Match pistols.  If you are going to actually correctly fit the arbor then you will have to find the deepest arbor hole and then deepen all of the others to match before setting the button,  weld or Dillon Button like Pettifogger showed everyone.  I guess in the case of Pettifogger's solution you could have a button that would stay with each barrel matched to a particular frame, but it's easier just to hit the bottom with a Ø10.5mm (.413") endmill and make them all of the same if you want to mix and match.  The button will have a chamfer it and it will bottom out on the freshly cut face.

Now that I have said all of that I will tell you I have variations between my Navy and Army Model frames that have nothing to do with the original design but are just variations in the frames over the years  and the way they fit them.  I actually have a pair of Leech and Rigdons that have two very different frame lengths.  One is slightly longer than all three of my 1860 pairs and one is shorter.  My pair of 1861s are both shorter than my 1860s.  My 1851s are in the middle of the range of the 1860s.

What does all of that mean?  It means the cylinder gap will vary from a slight interference to a gap of (if I remember correctly) .024".  But as I said it is the nature of the way they make the pistols and fit them at assembly, not inherent to the Colt's design.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Ah ...... 'scuse me Mako, but .... the .44 R/M Conversion cylinder/barrel assemblies do not swap to a .38 R/M frame.  Been there and tried that.  Doesn't work.

Coffinmaker

Coffinmaker,
Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, but you're going to have to show me where I ever mentioned a Richards-Mason Conversion.

The Uberti Army model conversions are a "bastard" size relative to every Colt's pistol ever made or any of the standard percussion frames.  The Navy models are a mixed bag.

I realize you mentioned conversions, but that is not what the original poster asked about.  He asked about 1851s and 1860s, no mention of R&Ms or any conversion for that matter.  In addition to answering his question I was addressing the '71/'72 Open Top that you mentioned.  They are almost interchangeable and make some interesting "kit guns", but they require some fitting just to work correctly and some more rework of the arbor/arbor hole relationship to actually fit "correctly."

Best regards,
Mako

[Coffinmaker]

Mako,

Oops.  I don't fool with Cap & Ball beyond simple timing and repair.  I DO fool with Open Tops and Conversions a LOT.  I develop ways for the guys and gals who don't have access to Mills, Line Boring Machines and Lathes to accomplish some simple tasks and fixes.  It is possible to get correct Arbor to Arbor Hole fit without a machine shop using simple tools.  It does make it possible to play the "kit gun" game and actually shoot multiple calibers on a single frame, or in some instances just multiple barrel length.  I did not address C&B guns in my answer.  Just Conversions and 71/72 Open Tops.   Recent manufacture guns are the majority of what we have to work with and it is a fact they vary a bit from "originals."  So we work with what we have.
Try to remember, not everyone has access to a machine shop and may not be able to afford the services of a machinist in correcting some problems and quit being such a putz.

Coffinmaker   

[Mako]

Mako,

...Try to remember, not everyone has access to a machine shop and may not be able to afford the services of a machinist in correcting some problems and quit being such a putz.

Coffinmaker   

You really don't know what that word means do you Coffinmmaker?

I'm actually amazed you would use that towards me...

[shootfromthehip]

Thanks fella's... But everyone just simmer down aint no sense in gettin all keyed up and name callin. Now coffinmaker, i have a question. non gated conversions "drop ins" require any adjustment or they literally drop in? And my gun is un marked of uberti or pietta i am assuming its a pietta... any big things that give it away?

And the "kirst" gated models... how does one achieve a nice uniform grind to accommodate the loading of the shells? I am toiling with which type of conversion to go with and need to decide.

[Raven]

Hip,

I'm going to give my two cents and Coffinmaker can chime in.

Drop in is a MYTH of the modern world ALL parts will need some fitting even parts for an AR15 or any other modern firearm.
Some more than others.....fitting that is.

Even though our customers use the words "Drop In" we say "Easy Fit"

IMO pulling the barrel to reload a Colt is a Pain in the A$$ on the other hand removing the cylinder in a Remington A La Pale Rider is way!!! faster than breach loading.

The instructions for the Kirst come with a templet for grinding the recoil shield but the trick is to clamp the Frame in the vise by the end of the Arbor with the converter in the frame. Push the converter forward and use a 5/8 Sanding Drum to start cutting
(remember that the drum turns very fast clockwise when looking from the handle of the dremel toward the drum... this means it will cut faster on the right so you must keep pressure to the left to keep it centered) Also use the Arbor as a centering guide for the dremel. As you go deeper keep pulling the converter to the rear to check progress. As you get close to full depth use a Dummy Round to check your depth. You are finished when the Dummy Round will slide in and out with out binding. If you do it this way you can use the converter ring and the Arbor as a guide to show you where the groove should be and you won't need the templet. Also keep the dremel level as you cut.

We also offer a fitting service for $100 which includes cutting the recoil shield, refinish, and MINOR timing adjustments. The $100 also includes return shipping and a factory warrenty.

Also... an Uberti 1860 cylinder will measure approx. 1.950 and a Pietta cylinder will be aprox. .020 longer...easyiest way I know to tell the difference other than the general shape of the gun as they are very different to my eye

Raven AKA Jay Strite
Kirst Konverter LLC

[shootfromthehip]

For the extra money i reckon gate is the way to go. I appreciate everyones help

[Coffinmaker]

Shootfromthehip,

There are few if any parts that literally "drop in."  Almost all require some degree of fitting, as Raven posted, some are an "easy fit," if your familiar with the gun and how it works.  I don't particularly care for the R & D conversion "kits" because of fitting and lousy firing pins that will have to be replaced (there too soft and mushroom) and there is almost no customer service from R & D (They've changed their name and I don't know what they are called now).
I also agree with the attendant problem of pulling the barrel every time you reload.  It doesn't take long and your replacing the barrel wedge from wear.  You'll get very tired of it.  You'll also lose a wedge or two in the gravel
The offer of "fitting" for $100 is very reasonable.  My experience with Jay Strite (Raven) in the past has been stellar.  I highly recommend his services.  Kirst/Strite offer an excellent product and fitting for $100 is a steal.

Mako,

I know EXACTLY what the word means.

Coffinmaker  

[shootfromthehip]

Trust me I mechanic on the side and know all to well nothing fits all, or drops in hence my quotes around "drop in". But im no stranger to the files and dremel so why not give it a shot. Cant learn anything having someone else do it. Raven i will be using the info you gave me to order here directly. Too many on going projects its starting to look like   

[Mako]

Mako,

I know EXACTLY what the word means.

Coffinmaker  

That's too bad, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

FORGIVEN

~Mako

[shootfromthehip]

Gentlemen... Lets keep a civil tone no need to name call and raise discontent.

[Jamie]

Going back to the origin of the thread, I haven't worked with tons of the same models from the same manufacturers, but I can attest to issues with a pair of ASM Pocket Police 5 shot .36's.  These guns are just plain cute, but the steel framed one I purchased first had a long barrel (about 6 inches without going and measuring) and I wanted one like Rick Hacker shot in an old Gun Digest with a much shorter barrel.  Then I shot the thing with the long barrel.  It immediately went to the gunsmith for a blade front sight and a squaring of the rear sight notch in the hammer.  Holy Hannah, what a shooter.  So I couldn't bring myself to mess with that barrel.  Lo and behold, I found a brass framed version, again from ASM, and the price was severely right from a gun shop that was selling out - like less than a new barrel would have cost from Dixie if they had even had one for this gun.  So, delighted, I went home thinking at least I had a spare cylinder and barrel for my steel framed gun.  OOPS!  The cylinders were completely different, the brass framed cylinder won't hold as much powder, is smaller, both in diameter and length, and the alignment pins for the barrel assembly are spaced completely differently, and the barrel doesn't fit the same on the arbor.  I can't imagine that this was a cost saving process for ASM  (Both guns were marked as CVA, as well as ASM.)  I can only assume that they were building some level of safety into what, being brass framed, was a weaker gun, either that or they were crazy, and worn out the old tooling and were working with new tooling, or something.  I went ahead and cut the barrel on the brass framed gun anyway, and it's fine now.  I still have to get the lever catch system completed, but it should be a fun gun.  The question then is, are all brass framed guns built with different components that steel guns, even within the same model, or was this just ASM?  From this (limited, I admit) experience, I'd be inclined to agree with an earlier poster, who suggested that planning on interchangability might be a mistake, and a decent used gun might be a better bet anyway.
Jamie

[Grizzly Adams]

I thought "putz" was something you do in Golf?

[Coffinmaker]

Jamie,

I don't work on Cap guns all that often.  Most of the guys and gals who shoot CAS with front loaders learn to be their own gun plumbers.
I can however, comment on ASM and their guns.  ASM guns for the most part are ......... crap.  QC was next to nonexistent and ASM parts for the most part, don't fit ASM guns without a LOT of fitting.  I have several ASM built Conversions that work, from the days when ASM Conversions were all that was available a working stiff could afford.  To get the few ASM conversions I have working reliably, I used 11 "parts" guns.  I was able to get the parts guns for next to nothing.
All of the above being said, the most accurate .38 Caliber handguns I have ever owned are ASM .38 1861 Conversions (not even close to an actual 1861).  They will drive tacks.
Original question:  NO.  Do not count on parts interchangeability.  It's a myth.  Even within manufacture, additional parts have to be fit to each individual gun.  Those parts will not necessarily work well in a different gun and in some cases, will not work at all.  Once in a great while, you'll find something that does fit.  When that happens, immediately go out and buy a Lotto ticket

Coffinmaker