Shooting cap and ball with paper cartridges

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

This was a lot of fun. One of our readers sent me some of his combustible paper cartridges to test.

[Montana Slim]

Thanks for demonstrating. Certainly first-class appearing cartridges & packaging...& good performance.

I have a variety of .44's & have shot several types of my own home-made paper cartridges & plenty of conical bullets over the years.  One thing I've found is that my "stock" Uberti, ASM & Pietta 1860s would not readily load the original style Colt conical bullet & had more than average difficulty squeezing-in any cartridge to load.

To remedy, I re-worked the barrel on my ASM 1860 with a dremel on the side one would normally load. My Ubertis are "kit" pistols & I modified them accordingly while finishing. The extra clearance allows a conical bullet (oer even a cartridge) to be inserted & then rotated under the rammer. Original Colts were made with this needed clearance. I suspect it isn't done today because it would require additional machining ($$), which few people will complain about since few will really attempt using conicals or paper cartridges.

Regards,
Slim

[Mako]

Mike,
You cut away on loading of the Army model.  Were you having trouble getting the bullet under the rammer?  I have another question as well about the weight of the .36 caliber bullet.  Did you actually weigh one?

Regards,
Mako

[Fingers McGee]

Great vid.  Would love to get hold of some of them - if for no other reason than to put a few packages in a cased set or two.

FM

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

Mako,

Loading the 1860 Army was difficult. I love Uberti's 1860, bit the loading window is significantly smaller than on original 1860s. The fellow who makes the cartridges measured original 1860s in a museum, then opened his up to match the originals and reblued it. If I was going to load these cartridges all the time I'd do the same.

I weighted a few of both the .36 and the .44 cartridges. I disected them with an exacto knife and weighed the powder charges and the bullets.

[rebsr52339]

BDM, this guy has a good thing going. Would love to get some unloaded ones from him with the packaging. Good show.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Nice vid. I have made both .36 & .44 paper cartridges and brother are they a lot of work!!    They are however faster to load (obviously). Thanks, BDM. 

[Mako]

Mako,

Loading the 1860 Army was difficult. I love Uberti's 1860, bit the loading window is significantly smaller than on original 1860s. The fellow who makes the cartridges measured original 1860s in a museum, then opened his up to match the originals and reblued it. If I was going to load these cartridges all the time I'd do the same.

I weighted a few of both the .36 and the .44 cartridges. I disected them with an exacto knife and weighed the powder charges and the bullets.

Mike,
Thanks for the answer I figured that was the case.   I also find the height of the rammer is often the problem.  I noticed the fumbling and the cut-away.  I used to think the solution is a more round nosed bullet, but did you find it was hitting on the side of the barrel opening and not at the top?

I ask because I have been working on a 130 grain big lube groove bullet for .36 caliber for a little while and I run into the same problem.  The openings of all of the "Navy Model" variants including the Confederate models among all of the many reproductions is all over the map.  It is the only reason I haven't submitted my design to Dick yet.  I have an idea that i need to float by him but it won't involve the two diameter step he favors.

Thanks so much Mike for producing it.

Regards,
Mako

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

On the Navy model the opening was tight, but not too tight.

On the 1860 the issue is definitely the opening and not the rammer. The end of the rammer is about a quarter of an inch higher than the top of the loading window. John, the guy who makes the cartridges, opened hos up with files. Then he polished and re-blued.

[Crow Choker]

BD Mike--Enjoyed your video, but don't think the paper carts are for me. Tried doing it once, gave up, too much hassle-besides part of the cap and ball shooting I enjoy is the loading. Pouring in loose powder, rammin' the ball in-takes time but I enjoy. I don't have or plan to ever get one of the loading devices sold for off gun loading-just my preference. I can see breaking the 'cart' paper spilling powder, almost saying words I know aren't proper. Anyway, I have one question that came to mind while I watched you load the paper carts. After a gun has shot 2-4 cylinder cycles of the paper carts or whenever it occurs, does inserting the carts ever get hampered by residue in the chambers requiring cleaning each chamber before continuing shooting? Is there any paper residue that builds up in the chambers? Just wondering, thanks for your input here and Facebook. Enjoy your articles in GOTOW so much I resubscribed. I didn't reup' last fall due to the editors putting an over adbundance of articles about old 'B' western movie stars. Bought the magazine to read about guns, not old movie stars and who knew em'. Discussed this with your editor several times, seems to have lessened some. Missed a couple of issues but like Dennis Adlers and your artilces.   

[rebsr52339]

This may be a stupid question but    on the healed bullets could you not make the heal longer and the bullet part a "little" shorter, leaving the OA length the same. Of course I'm  talking about a new mould now. Just wondering

I have loaded the heal typ using my bench mounted cylinder loading tool with loose powder.  Worked good. Did they make a HB heal type?  

[kurt250]

great vid, i have been making my cartridges for years and have gotten the process down to were i can make 50 a hour. great thing to do wile watching t.v. its like women knitting you get int a roll and can produce them quite easily. have made hundreds of them in 36 and 44. my problem is finding small wooden blocks or cardboard boxes for the cartridges. i really want to produce the original packaging also. if anyone can help would be grateful. kurt250

[rebsr52339]

Kurt250, I know the boxes can be punched out using a "rule die". We used them to punch out the ribs, bulkheads etc. in the balsa strips of wood that were in model airplane kits. They are cheep to make and will punch out thousands of cardboard blanks before replacing the steel blades. They are used in a "printing press" type machine. Can't help on the paper wrap or the art work on the labels.

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

Hi Crow Choaker...Glad you like the magazine. These cartridges, and ones I've made myself with cigarett paper burn very cleanly. I found a little paper ash in the .36, none in the .44. I shot 15 rounds of each and they were no more difficult to load at the end than at the beginning. The cartridges are a bit undersized and they taper, so that keeps it easy to push them in.

Mako, Last year...(or the year before...when you get old they all run together) I used Buffalo Bullets conicals. They are very blunt, but I still had issues with loading the Uberti 1860. That loading window is just small. I had no trouble with Remingtons and Rugers

Rebsr, You can make them any way you want. The first heel based bullets I ever used back about 15 years ago were cast by Liberty Bullets (now defunct) for .38 Long Colt. They were 180 grains and had a long shank.. Most conical molds throw a heeled bullet. I have one coming from Lee that I'm going to experiment with.

The ones in these cartridges are the real old time design that you used to see in the brass molds they sold in sets with the guns. They are somewhat heel based, They have a .4385" shank, then a .4605 driving band followed by the lube groove and the bullet body that is .4610 just before the ogive.

[kurt250]

thanks rebsr52339. will look into it. kurt250

[pony express]

Rebsr, You can make them any way you want. The first heel based bullets I ever used back about 15 years ago were cast by Liberty Bullets (now defunct) for .38 Long Colt. They were 180 grains and had a long shank.. Most conical molds throw a heeled bullet. I have one coming from Lee that I'm going to experiment with.

Do you know what the diameter of the shank of that Lee bullet is? I was thinking of trying them as a heel base bullet for .38 long colt-IF the shank part is about the right size.

[Henry4440]

Anyone knows  the price of the paper cartridges in 1860s.
I know the price for the .44 Henry Flat, 44-40, .45Colt and the different Sharp cartridges, but i found no price for the paper cartridges on .36 and .44.

[Bishop Creek]

Great vid.  Would love to get hold of some of them - if for no other reason than to put a few packages in a cased set or two.

FM

Fingers, Bill's Custom Cases make replica paper cartridge boxes for cased sets. He glues round lead balls inside the boxes for weight:

http://www.billscases.com/accessory_page_2.htm

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

I believe the cost of paper cartridges was $0.35 for a box of six...I'll have to check to be sure.

I don't know the measurements of Lee's .36 conical mold as I only have a .44 conical mold myself. But the folks at Lee are very helpful. If you call or email them I'm certain they can give you the dimensions.

[Professor Marvel]

Do you know what the diameter of the shank of that Lee bullet is? I was thinking of trying them as a heel base bullet for .38 long colt-IF the shank part is about the right size.

Greetings My Dear Monsiuer Express -
I do believe that might work, but only with some considerable finarking. I have that Lee die mold for my .36 Remingtons,
and just measured a bullet cast with "soft range lead". The bullet body mikes out to .375, as does the first drive band,
and the base mikes out at ~ .370

We know that the .38 Long Colt has an external case mouth diameter of .381 and "takes" a .361 lead bullet. I do not have a
.38 long colt case to measure the brass thickness, but my .38 spcl brass  mikes out to ~ .010 which would put the
Lee bullet + 2 thicknesses of brass at nearly (or over) .390.

One might get the Lee in the case by belling the case mouth  but I fear bulging would be excesive.

I have been considering this little project myself, and the only way I could see it working is if one make a
"base squishing tool" and separate crimping tool. I envision making them from 2 pair of coax cable connector crimpers - one to squeeze the bullet  heel down to .361 and one to crimp the brass case mouth with seated bullet to ~.378- .380.

yhs
prof marvel