What Kind of Shotgun Hulls do you use?

[Cookie]

I have since sprayed them with silicone to help  with extraction, but I have not tried them since.

That sounds interesting, tell us how it goes. I'll try it too if it works.

[Professor Marvel]

Professor I'm sorry to say this is not a well worded or complete survey...  Are you trying to bias it towards  towards AAs?  You have severely limited us in our choices.

Ahh My Dear Mako -

yes i fear said survey, having been the first I ever attempted, is both malformedd, misleading, Incomplete, and UnScientifical, not to mention downright UNfreindly.

whilst the apparent bias appears to be towards AA, (in actuallity it is biased towards Paper Hulls) that was the only plastic hull that came to my pooor besotted and bemused grey cells that I could recall loading with BP in the dim dark past.

Having become a lazy cur overwhelmed by events, as of late, I thought to generate discussion and stimulate conversational chatliness with something different and a modicum of humor ( which i seem to have misplaced lately) .

Apparrently, it did work in that regards :-)

I'm with Pettifogger and Lucky R.K. , STS hulls are the best.  I only use AA for my girls smokeless loads to keep them separate.

Add the category for STS and you will have a completely new champion with AAs trailing.

Add it and I'll vote.

Thanks,
Mako

Your Wish, Sir is My Command, STS is added as well as  a cuple some severel  ... um ... more

your demented servant
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

I for the most part have always agreed with the postings of the Prof but as Sir Charles posted there should have been a None of the above box.

Ah My Dear Fairshake, I am incredibly flattered, but do not be afeared, we shall still be friends :-)

and I have added the choice desired by you and Sir Charles  as well :-)

and thanks for the input!

yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

This poll would look very different if the Remington hulls were included. 
How many more that didn't post would have would have actually answered the poll if it was truly inclusive?  And how many just took Hobson's Choice because it didn't have what they used?

This is the way it should actually look with the responses so far:

Ah My Dear Mako, with that in mind I shall reset the survey ( I just saw I could do that) and let Those Who Care vote anew!

as confused as before
prof armlv

[Professor Marvel]

Thank you all for your input, by all means please keep it coming...

and my special thanks to PanHeadPete,  Fairshake and Sir Charles, for their tips on paper shells.

Hopefully the entertainment value will far outweigh the absurd inconvenience of the so-called survey, and I await with baited breath  the reply from the sharp-eyed monty-python fan who spots the ringer.

At a later time, I will try to consolidate the info into a usefull summation ...

your humble moron
piffissle amvrel

[Montana Slim]

For paper, I use the Federal hulls, card+ fibre cushion(slightly compressed), 90 grains FF, 1 1/4 oz shot & no lube.
These are my heavy 12 hunting loads. I have a few boxes loaded with #4 shot for late phesaants & varmints, and some with 7 1/2 shot for pidgeons, etc.

I don't use lube since it would soak into the hull somewhat & I don't use these up in a hurry, so they sit on a shelf indefinitely & keep nicely.

I load on MEC 600jr as all my other loading. I also use the MEC smooth crimp started, works well with paper hulls with have previously been crimped.

A drawback to paper is that if exposed to high humidity & moisture...they will swell, which could mean difficulty chambering or extracting.

Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think 13 is the ringer.

[Professor Marvel]

I think 13 is the ringer.

Ah, My Dear Driftwood -
but what is the reference?   

yhs
pf mvl

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Naughty Bits;

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/naughty.php


OR:  Waiting for The Film to Come;

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/waitfilm.php

[Jefro]

Remington STS's are the best followed by Winchester AA's.

Yep, and my two favorite loads are, BPI #072SSW wads for 1 1/8oz, 3.7cc BP, Mec bushing #40A. Win Pink for 7/8oz, 3.1cc, Mec bushing #36, Good Luck

BPI #072SSW


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[rickk]

To elaborate on the "strange foreign brands" a bit... once in a while BPI runs a special on primed RIO or Fiochi hulls for like 8 cents each. There is no hazmat charge for primed hulls. If you are going to roll crimp, use them once and toss them anyway, the math makes a lot of sense.


EDIT:

I just checked ... sale... 8.88 / 100 for primed Rio this week...  not a bad deal.
                                8.75 cents each if you buy 2000 of them.

[Howdy Doody]

I voted other. I use pre primed Fiocchi and reload them about 3 times and that is with BP. I got 500 of them when BPI had a big sale last year. They are the cat's pajamas. I knew you would like that industry term Prof. 

[cpt dan blodgett]

Greetings Fellow Netizens

I now find myself the proud possessor of a very tight vintage hammered Belgian damascus double, and thus am desirous to manufacture proper BP loads my my new girl. Since I shoot colt and remmie C&B revovlers and a yellowboy I thought it most appropriate to use Brass shells. I plan to use a light square load, (light because I am cheap and powder is dear) but Whlist I wait upon reciept of the brass I thought I would load up a batch of more ordinary shotshells.

If I need to , I can use plastic, but it is after all, so .... plastic. And petroleum based polymers are sooooo modernisch ...

However, While cleaning the shop I came across a box of paper hulls I had acquired some time ago, and of course this led to thinking and cogitation and cerebral overheating ..... if I can find my antique roll-crimper Ill be all set.....

Can anyone offer any advise, hints, tips,  specific to loading paper hulls, esp with Black?

Sooooo.... what hulls do you load & shoot, dear reader?

yhs
prof marvel

Just for grins, what is the chamber length of that beast?

[Professor Marvel]

Just for grins, what is the chamber length of that beast?

Why Cpt Dan, what an astute and insightful query! I had definitely intended to check the chamber length, but After a long discourse in another older thread concerning chamber length and forcing cones (or the lack there-of) I ought to have remembered to take forcing cones into consideration as well

Therefore I shall go make a wax chamber casting forthwith, (after consulting at length with She Who Must be Obeyed regarding bathroom shower tile selection) and report back thereon.

It would be most unwise to stomp forward in blissfull ignorance of both.

yhs
prof marvel

[Mako]

Hey Professor!

The new format looks good.  It is coming out the way I expected.   Rem STS and Nitro 27s are identical except for color.  I actually like the gold hulled Nitros when I can get them, but it is just a matter of the die in the resin that separates them.

So as of today 3/28 it's basically 15 Rem STS/Nitro, 9 Brass and AAs coming in 3rd.  A few years ago before the Winchester case and plastic change it might have been reversed.

Good poll.

Have a great day,
Mako

[Professor Marvel]

Hey Professor!

The new format looks good.  It is coming out the way I expected.   Rem STS and Nitro 27s are identical except for color.  I actually like the gold hulled Nitros when I can get them, but it is just a matter of the die in the resin that separates them.

So as of today 3/28 it's basically 15 Rem STS/Nitro, 9 Brass and AAs coming in 3rd.  A few years ago before the Winchester case and plastic change it might have been reversed.

Good poll.

Have a great day,
Mako

Ah My Dear Mako, I am happy to have rectified the error of my ways.

For historical reasons my first choice will be brass cases. Once I determine the proper chamber length I won't even need to think about forcing cones.

My second choice, again for historicity , will be paper. Using my trademarked phrase "It Depends" ™ the forcing cones may or may not be an issue.

However for practicalicity, I will happily admit that, being a lazy cur   swamped for time there will be occasions that I will perforce succumb to the need for plastics ... :-(

Since you appear to be well versed in the Alchemical Scientificologies, might I inquire as to your opinion of which plastic materials seem to hold up the best under the stress of BP and why?


yhs
prof marvel

[fourfingersofdeath]

The brass case finding is a bit skewed I'm thinking and not reflected in general practice. brass shell users jump in to defend their choice, much as do the fanatically loyal cap and ballers who jump right into a poll. There was a poll recently and if the findings were typical, we would be seeing three out of every four shooters on the line not only shooting cap and ball guns, but shooting traditional cap and ball guns at that. The reality is that on the cowboy scene, ROAs dominate the Cap and Ball guns and c&b guns are there, but cartridge guns predominate.

[Cookie]

The brass case finding is a bit skewed I'm thinking and not reflected in general practice. brass shell users jump in to defend their choice, much as do the fanatically loyal cap and ballers who jump right into a poll. There was a poll recently and if the findings were typical, we would be seeing three out of every four shooters on the line not only shooting cap and ball guns, but shooting traditional cap and ball guns at that. The reality is that on the cowboy scene, ROAs dominate the Cap and Ball guns and c&b guns are there, but cartridge guns predominate.

I think you're right on the money Four Fingers.

I shoot brass shells and I'm the only one I know of out of dozens of shooters I've met. Same with C&B pistols. I know of 2 other guys who have them, but none of us shoot them regularly. (Although between us, there's no ROAs. There's one pair each of '51s, '60s, and Remingtons.)

The people who do shoot brass love it, but we're certainly a small minority.

[Mako]

The brass case finding is a bit skewed I'm thinking and not reflected in general practice. brass shell users jump in to defend their choice, much as do the fanatically loyal cap and ballers who jump right into a poll. There was a poll recently and if the findings were typical, we would be seeing three out of every four shooters on the line not only shooting cap and ball guns, but shooting traditional cap and ball guns at that. The reality is that on the cowboy scene, ROAs dominate the Cap and Ball guns and c&b guns are there, but cartridge guns predominate.

FFOD,
I agree with you on the brass hulls, but I rarely see anyone at the four clubs I shoot with use ROAs.  We're sort of primitive and use either Colt's or Remington pattern cap guns.  I can't remember the last time I saw an ROA at a "local" club match.   I even don't see that many at the State Black Powder Match.

It isn't too infrequent when I am the only C&B shooter at a match with 30 to 50 participants.  We may have 10% to 15% at most that shoot BP.  We used to posse together but lately we seem to hang with old friends more.

~Mako

[Mako]

Professor,
I can tell you a couple of things about the polymers used for the tube portions of the current American hulls , but not everything.  If you know your history of plastic shotgun hulls you will know that the first attempts at making them involved injection molding the polymer portion.  That gave a nice tube but lacked strength and resistance to softening during firing.  In order to make the material flow and fully fill out the molded part, the melt point was lower and it limited the tensile strength and the softening point was well within the temperatures of normal firing.  For instance the old Mark 5 hulls were injection molded.

Then entered Winchester in the '60s with a Compression Forming process.  The used a slug of Polyethylene and formed the tube under heat and pressure much like a metal forming process to make deep drawn "cups."  This allowed them to make a one piece hull which was actually strong enough not to require a "High Brass" base for high pressure loads.    The high brass was required with paper hulls and the earlier plastic hulls to provide the support for the powder area.  Remington and Peters followed suit with one piece tube designs and they all used polyethylene as the polymer.

There is an alternative hull design to the compression formed tube called the Reifenhauser hulls (Federal uses those).  Unlike the compression formed hulls they have straight walls and always have a separate base piece.  I forgot to mention that compression formed hulls always have tapered walls.  This is required to get the hull off of the forming mandrel.   An unintended but happy consequence of the tapered hull is that it makes the base stronger and high brass is not required.  High brass is still used by manufacturers because it is "expected" by consumers for higher powered loads.  There are a lot of traditional hold-overs when it comes to shotguns.  Just look at a box of shells and notice the dram equivalent rating.  Few outside of us that use BP even know what that means, or where it came from.  Another "traditional" holdover in shotguns is barrel length.  Full chokes are 30" barrels, Modified 28" and Improved Cylinder 26" in single barreled guns without screw in chokes.  This used to be more common before the screw in chokes became so common.

In 2000 Winchester was granted a patent for a two piece compression formed hull.  It involved the ability to lock the injection molded base piece into the tube during a second "forming" process.  That had always been the problem with base pieces.  Shotgunners that loved Federal Gold Medal hulls made internal  hull base inspection part of their reloading process lest they get a separation and the base be launched forward obstructing the barrel for the next shot.  It happened, or it would simply mess up the uniformity of the load so necessary for high stakes clay competition.  There is an advantage to the Reifenhauser hull with nitro powder because the wad shape at the base and the collapsing section can control the column better.  With BP the powder volume is much more and the wads are already out of the heavily tapered section on a compression formed hull.  If it weren't for plastic wads the compression hulls would not be popular with nitro shooters because the fiber wad would have to be reduced in diameter or tapered to fit.  The plastic wad skirt obturates to fill the diameter upon firing.


When Winchester made their change they did something to the hull material.  There are many, many different formulations of polyethylene and polyethylene alloys.  I can only make an educated guess, but I would say it was to make the base piece "weld" itself into the tube better.  There was a time period they were varying the plastic and there were reports of premature splits or the plastic getting hard.  They seem to have it ironed out now.  Now the new material that Winchester uses is not detrimental to nitro powder shooters because their powder doesn't burn as hot or have as much residue blowing back on the outside.   You see it on plastic hulls where they begin to look scorched, melted or rough looking as you use them with BP.  Most people use this as the determining factor as to when to discard the hulls.

Winchester and Remington have been competing for the reloading market a long time, because the reloading market would be the heavy competition shooters.  The general public follows what the competitors do. The one piece hull made them the darling of the competition clay shooters because of their longevity.  The hulls lasted a LONG time and being one piece there was very little to fail.  Today some shooters are a bit disenchanted with the new A-A HS two piece design because there is a ridge or ring in the tube above the base and it get progressively deeper each time it is shot.

Below is some of the artwork from the 2000 Winchester patent for the A-A HS hull.  The Figure one is a traditional Reifenhauser hull and Fig. 2 is the new Win design.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cartridges/WinchestePatentArtwork.jpg


Winchester, or more correctly Olin made a very calculated and somewhat risky decision in switching to the new HS hulls.  They spent time doing marketing research and polling to find out how many reloads the average dedicated clay shooter would attempt on a hull.  They found the vast majority discarded them based on appearance rather than crimp splitting or wear.  So they decided the ring that formed above the base insert would not be a problem until after the shooters would discard the hull.  This may not be true for BP shooters, I haven't conducted controlled experiments, but the wear at that interface may be accelerated due to the hotter gases from BP.  Anecdotally, I have noticed that it appears the new A-A HS cases get "burned" on the exterior more quickly and have to be discarded sooner.   I believe this is because of a resin change for their hull forming process.  Olin hedged their bets at first by keeping their handicap and other hulls the time proven one piece hull. They were loath to give up their market dominance with the A-A compression formed design.  I don't think they would have done this 30 year ago.  The two piece design is cheaper to produce and the A-A name instead of the performance of the hull has maintained the inertia to keep the public from realizing the change and switching to Remington.

A-A hulls are so ubiquitous and you can literally pick up boxes of once fired empties from all of the "smokiless" shooters at every match that you could probably use once fired hulls for all of your reloads and then discard them after you shoot them.  I also haven't done any controlled tests to determine if the "once used" BP reloads in A-As are "stickier" in the chambers even upon the first firing.  I have heard others state they are, but that is only hearsay...

I shoot Remington Nitro 27s when I can get them, I like the golden color and it makes it easy to inspect them for heat damage on the exterior before reloading.  I also use the STS hulls which only differ from the Nitro 27s in the dye used in the resin.  Both are unibody construction and are probably the best hulls for repeated reloading of BP due to what the forming process does to the plastic.  There is a slickness and hard skin created by the compression forming process, the resin melt point is also higher because the compression forming process requires it to be.   I have been told that Olin uses a hybrid process and not the Reifenhauser process for their HS hulls, I don't know what that means especially after I reviewed their patent a few years back.   It looks like they use a Reifenhauser drawn tube and then pressure weld the base in, perhaps that is their "hybrid" process.

One last thought, the ribbed Reifenhauser hulls appear to work well, and we would discard them due to surface melting and burning long before the base would probably be an issue.   It's not a matter of safety or reloadability,  I just use what I do because they drop free and they are "purty."

Regards,
Mako