some thoughts on lubed fiber wads in shot shells.

[Mako]

Hi Cookie,

I get the material from my local Lowes store.  It comes in a sheet 4' x 8' x 1/2" and is used for house siding.  I refer to it as masonite although I do not know that is the correct term.  One sheet will make all the wads you would probably ever shoot.

I have also punched cushion wads out of felt.  Years ago I got a roll of half inch felt and used it until it was gone.  I soaked the wads with my lube and they worked very well.  When I went back to buy more felt the price had gone up to the point I thought it wasn't worth it.  I have since used the fiber material from Lowes and have been more than pleased with the performance.

If you can't find the material let me know and I will get the name for you.

Lucky    

Well R.K.

I sort of made a fool of myself at Lowes today on the way home from a club match.  I went in knowing the material wasn't masonite because I use that all of the time for enclosures and even covering my benches with a disposable hard 1/8" top.

They had absolutely no idea what I was talking about, and probably thought I was nuts since I still had a lot of my cowboy clothes still on.  I tried everything to explain what I wanted and they even went online to see if they could see if it was carried at some of the Lowes maybe someplace back East.  The best we could come up with is a Tar based sheathing in the 3/8 or 1/2 inch thicknesses you described.  Not tar paper, but a 3/8" thick material made from petroleum products and held together with "tar."  I told them it would be a natural based fiber and look like a woven mat of plant fibers I even showed them a mat in their  homewares section that looked like it was woven from hemp.

You're going to have to help us out here, I have no idea what you are describing.  I remember a long time ago, and I mean a long time ago seeing some pressed fiber sheathing with tar paper overlay, but that was probably 30 years ago.

And while I am at it could you describe these plug cutting tools you use.  I have punches in Ø.450 and Ø.375 I use for my felt wads.

I have one last question, where did you ever find 1/2" or 3/8" felt?  I have looked the world over for it.  The thickest that I can find planet wide is 1/4."  I order my 1/8" from Durofelt.

~Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

Well R.K.

I sort of made a fool of myself at Lowes today on the way home from a club match. 
~Mako

My Dearest Mako,

I am currently in Oak Ridge Tennessee for a long range muzzleloading match.  When I get home I will be glad to answer all your questions so you can feel more comfortable whtn you go to Lowes.

Lucky 

[Mako]

My Dearest Mako,

I am currently in Oak Ridge Tennessee for a long range muzzleloading match.  When I get home I will be glad to answer all your questions so you can feel more comfortable whtn you go to Lowes.

Lucky  

R.K.
I'm so happy this amuses you...

I normally feel very comfortable going to Lowes, and I don't mind going places still dressed in my CAS gear if I am not on a fool's errand.  I hope I am wrong, but I have a gnawing feeling that the material I will be directed to is not like what my Circle Fly wads are made from.  We'll see...

Just so you don't forget, when you get home be sure to make those three measurements we need from your Centaur as well.  Oh, and the explanation about the punches for the material you are directing us to.

~Mako

[Montana Slim]

I'm pretty cheep on my reloading.....cast all my own bulelts & make the lube, too.....but, I do buy my loading supplies for shotshells...well, except for the hulls, which I get for free from several friends & relatives who only shoot smokeless factory & don't reload. Happily, I just wrapped up my CAS BP shotshell loading for the season. 500 shells loaded with fibre wads, lots of FF & # 7 1/2 shot. Total cost just under $100. The waddage cost was around $15. I size/deprime/reprime all the shells first, this speeds things up & improves concentration during filling the case with goodies.

Slim

[pony express]

Mako, What Lucky is referring to is an old fashioned kind of "insulation board" I can't remember the exact name, it's black colored on one side, usually brown on the other side(and all through). I think it's made mostly of wood fibers. Not very strong. I also think it's not used for building much nowadays, Everything seems to be made of chipboard anymore.

[Mako]

Mako, What Lucky is referring to is an old fashioned kind of "insulation board" I can't remember the exact name, it's black colored on one side, usually brown on the other side(and all through). I think it's made mostly of wood fibers. Not very strong. I also think it's not used for building much nowadays, Everything seems to be made of chipboard anymore.

Pony Express,
As I said above I am familiar with that product:

...  I remember a long time ago, and I mean a long time ago seeing some pressed fiber sheathing with tar paper overlay, but that was probably 30 years ago...
~Mako

That's what you're talking about, we called it sheathing board and I have used it as an underlayment for siding.  Can you imagine using it for wad material?  It is much too stiff.  Like you said it is frangible and it breaks.  With all of the glue in it I can't think it would work well.  It literally looked like fine shredded wood fibers about one inches long pressed together in a mat.

Regards,
Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

Sorry to take so long to reply but I have been traveling.  I will now attempt to answer the three questions posed about making fiber wads.  I hope you do not mind if use a different post for each question because they will be a bit wordy.

Mako's Question on wad material,

"You're going to have to help us out here, I have no idea what you are describing.  I remember a long time ago, and I mean a long time ago seeing some pressed fiber sheathing with tar paper overlay, but that was probably 30 years ago."

My original post indicated that I did not know the name of the material I used but that I referred to it as masonite siding.  That indeed was not the correct name.  Lowes calls the material "Regular Siding".  It is made by Georgia Pacific and is identified by Lowes product number 15380.  That number will identify the material in any Lowes store according to a Rep. in my local store.  This material is the same as that some of you have referred to in your posts.  It can be found in the "Insulation" area.

I am not trying to sell anything here and I am not trying to tell anyone how to make wads or what material to use.  I am telling you that I have used this material for years for wads in both muzzle-loading and black powder shotguns with very good results.

If you are really interested I encourage you to take some Circle Fly fiber wads to your local Lowes store and compare them with the material described above.  Let me know what you think.

Lucky 

[Lucky R. K.]

I will answer Mako's third question next because I am going to attempt to use a "Mako" technique to answer the second question.  I am going to try to upload pictures of the wad cutters I use for clarity.

Here goes,

"I have one last question, where did you ever find 1/2" or 3/8" felt?  I have looked the world over for it.  The thickest that I can find planet wide is 1/4."  I order my 1/8" from Durofelt."


I have not actually used felt cushion wads since the mid-1990's but the sources I used from the mid 1980's until I stopped shooting felt wads were two.

There was a man that came to the national muzzle loading matches at Friendship Indiana who worked at some kind of refrigeration/heating cooling company. They used felt for insulation on whatever they were fabricating.  He would bring the scarp material to Friendship and sell it to the shotgun shooters for wad material.  The scraps were usually a piece of round felt about 3 to 4 inches in diameter and about 1 inch thick.  He packaged the felt in the old paper grocery bags and sold them for $5.00 each.  That was a lot of felt.  I would cut the material into ½ inch thick pieces and punch wads from it.

The second source for felt was from a local company who made up hydraulic hoses and sold gasket material and other things.  A friend of mine who worked there at the time told me they had felt in sheets or small rolls that were ½ inch thick.  I went by and found a piece of a small roll that had some material cut from it.  It was about 2 feet by 3 feet as I remember.  I bought it for a reasonable price which I do not remember now and used it for wads.  When I went back for more I found that they would have to order the material now and they wanted too much money for it to be practical for making wads.  This was in the mid 1990's and I have not used felt for wads since then.

I did start to order some 1/8 inch felt a couple of years ago to make wads for my C & B pistols but I bought a Big Lube bullet mould from Dick Dastardly instead.  With the fear of starting another debate I will say that there is no better way to go with bullets for the C & B pistols than those Big Lube bullets.

Dick, please send money.

Lucky 

[Mako]

Sorry to take so long to reply but I have been traveling.  I will now attempt to answer the three questions posed about making fiber wads.  I hope you do not mind if use a different post for each question because they will be a bit wordy.

Mako's Question on wad material,

"You're going to have to help us out here, I have no idea what you are describing.  I remember a long time ago, and I mean a long time ago seeing some pressed fiber sheathing with tar paper overlay, but that was probably 30 years ago."

My original post indicated that I did not know the name of the material I used but that I referred to it as masonite siding.  That indeed was not the correct name.  Lowes calls the material "Regular Siding".  It is made by Georgia Pacific and is identified by Lowes product number 15380.  That number will identify the material in any Lowes store according to a Rep. in my local store.  This material is the same as that some of you have referred to in your posts.  It can be found in the "Insulation" area.

I am not trying to sell anything here and I am not trying to tell anyone how to make wads or what material to use.  I am telling you that I have used this material for years for wads in both muzzle-loading and black powder shotguns with very good results.

If you are really interested I encourage you to take some Circle Fly fiber wads to your local Lowes store and compare them with the material described above.  Let me know what you think.

Lucky  

R.K.
Like I said much earlier, it is sheathing.  If you look back at my earlier posts I identified it as such.

Here it is:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_15380-44903-NA_0__?productId=3138497&Ntt=15380&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D15380

But look at the MSDS, like I said it is a tar or asphalt based product.

http://www.gp.com/build/DocumentViewer.aspx?repository=BP&elementid=7490

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/GP31B__Final-1_Page_1.jpg

I'll do better than just take some wads, I'm going to go buy a sheet.

Go ahead and post how to make those wad punches so I can try it.

~Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_15380-44903-NA_0__?productId=3138497&Ntt=15380&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3D15380

http://www.gp.com/build/DocumentViewer.aspx?repository=BP&elementid=7490
I'll do better than just take some wads, I'm going to go buy a sheet.

Glad to see you are checking me out.  You got the first web link correct but the second one is not.  It refers to an all black board that does have a lot of stuff in it that you wouldn't want shoot.

If I can figure out how to post a picture I will show as well as explain how to make the wad cutter I use.

Lucky 

[Lucky R. K.]

Mako's question about wad cutters,

"And while I am at it could you describe these plug cutting tools you use.  I have punches in Ø.450 and Ø.375 I use for my felt wads."

If you have a small lathe it is not so hard to make wad cutters.  I have made them for all the calibers and gauges I shoot.

Start with a piece of 1 inch steel stock about three inches long (for smaller calibers use smaller stock).  The length depends on the caliber or gauge of cutter you are making.  Turn one end down to a ½ inch diameter for about an inch or so.  This is the end that goes in the chuck of the drill press.  Turning the chuck end first will help to assure the cutter runs true when finished.  Turn the piece around in the lathe and drill a hole with a drill bit to a somewhat smaller diameter of the finished size.  The depth of this hole is determined by the wad you plan to make.  There should be enough depth for the internal plunger to work and allow for the thickness of the wad.  The largest drill bit I have is ½".  If I need a larger hole I use a boring bar to rough out the last bit.  To finish to the final diameter I mount a Dremel tool on my tool post and with a stone I grind the internal wall to the final diameter. We are not talking rocket science here but a few thousands oversize is better than a few thousands undersize.  I grind it deep enough until it is the same diameter as far down the hole as the wad material will travel.  Taper the outside edge to a sharp edge and you are finished turning.  Heat the cutting edge with a torch and quench in oil to harden it.  Depending on how the heat affected the inside ground surface you might have to touch it up.  You could harden and then grind.

I use a ¼" machine bolt to make the plunger.  Screw a piece of steel stock onto the end of it and turn it down until the diameter is slightly smaller than the wad diameter.  You want the fit to be fairly close but you need to allow enough to keep slitter dust from binding the plunger when cutting.   Go to Ace Hardware or your favorite store and get a coil spring strong enough and long enough to push out a cut wad from the cutter.  I use an "E" clip to hold the plunger in place.

You want the end of the plunger to position just at the mouth of the cutter.  Determine the position for the grove to hold the "E" clamp and make the cut.  I use an old hack saw blade with the "set" of the teeth ground off to make the cut.

Run the tool in your drill press at a fairly slow speed and feed it into the material.  It should cut a clean shouldered wad and leave it in the cut hole when you raise the cutter.

I think the picture I made should give you the idea of how all this works.  Now, If I can only get it to post.

One more thing.  When you chuck the cutter in the drill press be sure to allow space for the top of the plunger to work in the chuck.  If it hits the top of the chuck it will keep the cutter from cutting all the way through the material.

Lucky 

[Mako]

Thank you for the picture R.K.  I like your ejector mechanism.

I have some 1" diameter O-1 stock,  I'll get it turned this evening.  I've got an actual  tool post grinder that will simplify the I.D. grinding.

I just got back from running some errands and I went to both Home Depot and Lowes.  "No Joy"...

I just looked on the Georgia-Pacific site trying to find who might carry it in my area. The only place is contractor supply, I'm going to go by and see if I can wrangle a sheet.  They said they only serve  contractors, they next closest place is almost 50 miles away. So I called McCoy's and one of the guys there thinks that The Temple Inland Fiberboard is an equivalent product.  There is one on the way to the property so I may stop by there tonight if it doesn't get too late.

Appreciate it,
Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

Hey Mako,

Hope you are able to find the board.  I am glad to share any information I can about shooting.

Let me know how the cutter comes out.

Lucky 

[Mako]

R.K.
I don't think the Temple-Inland material is the same.  At least what they had on hand didn't look right, the "fibers" were more like flakes. Not like OSB but similar.  Didn't look like my wads.

I'm curious about who told you it was the material that Circle Fly uses.  Was it actually the Georgia-Pacific material, or did they use a generic name for it?  If they did, it would help me find an alternative.

I've been shooting BP for over 45 years and this is truly a first for me.  I've used cork, felt,  plastic, cardboard and even caulking backer, but I've never had this much trouble trying to find something someone suggested to me.  Now it will bug me until I do...

~Mako

[Montana Slim]

Dunno about finding the correct material at Lowes, Home depot, etc...but you could check ASTM 208....or review the American Fiberboard Association at:

http://www.fiberboard.org/index.html

When you tell these folks your an engineer, they're likely to send you sample packs & literature galore.
I've seen suitable products at the design shows in Chicago, but don't recall any of the companies.

Slim
(who never has to buy Loctite, lubes, cleaning brushes & similar freebies passed out freely at shows)

[Cookie]

Wow, didn't realize my question would set off such a firestorm!  

@Lucky  - On your suggestion I went to my (not-so-local) Lowe's and found something called "Sound Board" in the insulation section and it looks almost exactly like the same material as Circle Fly's 1/2in fiber filler wads. Just more dense, with less spring, but the same pressed fiber weave construction.

But, I don't think it's the same as the stuff you mentioned, since I didn't notice any sort of backing or other paper on the exterior. Just the pressed fibers.

They sell them in 4' x 8' x 1/2" panels, $10.60 per panel. Which is obviously enough for thousands of wads.

Unfortunately I didn't write down a SKU # and I can't for the life of me find them on Lowe's website. And for the record, I also checked out the local Home Depot and they didn't have anything like it that I could find.

I have one last question, where did you ever find 1/2" or 3/8" felt?  I have looked the world over for it.  The thickest that I can find planet wide is 1/4."  I order my 1/8" from Durofelt.

~Mako

It's not as cheap as Duro-Felt, but if you go to mcmaster.com, they've got felt up to 1" thick.

And, FWIW I also just ordered a couple of punches from them, 5/8" and 3/4" for my 20ga & 12ga needs.  (I'm not fortunate enough to have my own lathe.)

[Mako]

Dunno about finding the correct material at Lowes, Home depot, etc...but you could check ASTM 208....or review the American Fiberboard Association at:

http://www.fiberboard.org/index.html

When you tell these folks your an engineer, they're likely to send you sample packs & literature galore.
I've seen suitable products at the design shows in Chicago, but don't recall any of the companies.

Slim
(who never has to buy Loctite, lubes, cleaning brushes & similar freebies passed out freely at shows)

huh?

[Mako]

Thanks Cookie,
My guys pretty much keep McMaster-Carr in business.  I think we literally buy something from them everyday.

I should have said a source of affordable felt.  I could shoot silver bullets for what it would cost me.  We use the thick felt for way wipes.  I have some old I tried to use but it was saturated with oil and solvents.

Thanks again,
Mako

[Lucky R. K.]

@Lucky  - On your suggestion I went to my (not-so-local) Lowe's and found something called "Sound Board" in the insulation section and it looks almost exactly like the same material as Circle Fly's 1/2in fiber filler wads. Just more dense, with less spring, but the same pressed fiber weave construction.

But, I don't think it's the same as the stuff you mentioned, since I didn't notice any sort of backing or other paper on the exterior. Just the pressed fibers.

They sell them in 4' x 8' x 1/2" panels, $10.60 per panel. Which is obviously enough for thousands of wads.

Unfortunately I didn't write down a SKU # and I can't for the life of me find them on Lowe's website.

Hi Cookie,
The material I am talking about is made by Georgia Pacific, called "Regular Siding" and found in the insulation area.  The material number is 15380 and a sales rep. at my Lowes store tells me that number should be the same for any of their stores.  The cost at my store is $8.65.

This material does NOT have any kind of backing on it.  It is stained or dyed black on one side and has the brown wood fiber color on the other side.

I may have said in some previous post that this is the same material as used by Circle Fly. I have NOT confirmed with Greg Smith that this is correct.  I based my comments on a visual inspection.  If any of you want to know for sure just give Greg a call and ask him.  I am sure he would be glad to answeer any questions you have.

Lucky 

[Cookie]

@Mako - Yeah, they're not nearly as cheap as Duro-Felt, but I figured I'd at least mention them since they do offer thicker felt.


@Lucky - appears they don't have the 'Regular Siding' you mention at the nearest Lowe's.  

BUT I was able to finally find online the stuff I saw - it's called "Sound Board Acoustic Insulation" and it's item #15387.

So, it's different from what you showed me, but I still think it'll work for my needs since it's made from pressed wood fiber.

In any case, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. As soon as my punches show up I get to cut me some shotgun wads!  

And, speaking of punches, those punches you made look great! Way better than anything else I've seen. I especially like the plunger idea. Have you considered making any to sell? I'd certainly buy a few!