some thoughts on lubed fiber wads in shot shells.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the wire,

Since I've been shooting black powder at SASS matches I've been using all "natural" wads in my shot shells.  From experience, I've found that lubed wads do make cleanup very easy.  Some other thoughts are that the lubed wad can smack into the back end of the shot column as it leaves the muzzle, thus causing a doughnut hole in the shot pattern.  I've not been able to observe this from any of my patterning tests, but the folks at Circle Fly cautioned about it.

I think the hole in the pattern comes from too much powder in the charge blowing a hole.

For reasons I can't sleuth out,  1200 fps seems to be about as fast as I can push shot with black powder out of any of my scatterguns.  I'm loading 20ga, 16ga, 12ga and 10ga and none of 'em will reliably push shot over 1200 fps without blowing patterns.  I'm talkin' loads from "feather light" to "magnum" heavy here.  Seems that 1200 fps is the upper velocity limit consistent with good patterns from my scatterguns.  And, yes, I've tried those heathen fad polycarbonate wads too.  So, I use lubed fiber cushion wads with all my black powder shot shells because it eases cleanup and they slide thru my MEC 600 Jr. Mk-V loaders easier.

FWIW, when loading the lubed wads, I put an empty pistol brass in the rammer tube.  I use a pistol size that slips into the tube easy and holds on the rim.  This way lube doesn't get up inside the rammer tube and cause powder/shot hangups.

All my black powder shot shells are roll crimped.  I have a bench top drill press next to my shot shell loading station with a MEC Supersizer mounted on it.  I find the Supersizer perfect as a hull vise to hold the loaded shell straight and proud for the roll crimp tool.  Makes real pretty roll crimps and it's very fast to use.

DD-DLoS

[Lucky R. K.]

Dick said, "I think the hole in the pattern comes from too much powder in the charge blowing a hole."

Hello Dick,

I agree with your statement but I also think lube, or the amount of lube in the wad also could be a factor.  I have patterned loads with unlubed fiber wads and found impressions of the wad on the paper with a doughnut pattern.

I make my own fiber wads using the same material as the Circle Fly.  I then pan lube them with Emmerets lube for about half the thickness of the wad.  When I pattern with this wad I have never found any evidence of the wad on the paper and get a good even pattern.

Your loading technique is almost exactly the same as mine.  Instead of using a case over the rammer I build my wad column in a MEC Grabber with the nitro card, lubed fiber wad and an overshot wad.  The overshot wad keeps the lube off the rammer and prevents any shot from being pressed into the fiber wad when crimped.  I have only recently begun to roll crimp using an old original roll crimper I bought years ago at an antique store.  I really like this method but it is time consuming.

Nothing scientific about any of the testing I have done over the years but we seem to get good results with our loads.

I am still enjoying your moulds.

Lucky 

[Mako]

Dick,
I predominately shoot plastic and you see the same phenomenon with polypropylene wads.  You can definitely create a hole in the pattern as you increase your powder charge.  I use prelubed fiber wads for my Brass shell loads and I find the same happens if I up the powder charge for them.

I have not decided whether or not lubricated wads make any difference in cleanup.  I can only speak anecdotally about my experience with keeping chambers less fouled to help shuck those brass hulls.  I find the brass hulls don't shuck as well as the STS hulls (or even AAs) I normally use no matter what I do.  You would think the heavier all brass hulls would fall better.

I started with a bunch of unlubricated 11ga wads I bought from a friend and when I ran out I switched to the lubricated wads.  I have used both Ox-Yoke and Circle Fly wads.  I found no difference in the performance of either, but for what it is worth the Circle Fly are more expensive than the Ox-Yoke. 

Like you I have not noticed pellets sticking to lubricated wads,  if this is a problem for the serious clay shooters it is probably a non-issue for us just shooting steel plates.  But, what I report is purely anecdotal because I have not conducted any controlled tests and I don't shoot thousands of shotshells a year anymore.  If someone wants to conduct those tests then I will happily review what they report and if it is supported one way or another I will most probably cite those tests in future posts or what I will recommend to others.

Regards,
Mako

EDITED to remove prejudicial wording 22 March 2011
And thank you to my friends serving as my conscience (or a 2 X 4 to the head, take your pick) ~Mako
 

[Fairshake]

I have had many a conversation with the owner of Circle Fly and believe him to be a very honest business man. When I first started loading BP shotgun hulls which was new to me for SASS he gave a lot of help. I started shooting C&B in 1970 but had never had need for the BP shot shells. He told me that a load that had been given to me on the SASS wire was all wrong. I was using the lubed 1/2 inch wad and missing KD's which is hard to believe. When shot on paper they had a huge hole in the center of the pattern. I went to 3/8 unlubed wads and the problem went away. That is when I was shooting my 1887 with the Fiocchi paper hulls. I have started using the 1889 SXS copy of the Colt with the Nitro 27 hulls with a roll crimp put on by my drill press. I don't think he would steer you wrong to make a $6 sale Mako. I do know that the use of the lubed wad is not needed and no longer load them.

[Mako]

I have had many a conversation with the owner of Circle Fly and believe him to be a very honest business man. When I first started loading BP shotgun hulls which was new to me for SASS he gave a lot of help. I started shooting C&B in 1970 but had never had need for the BP shot shells. He told me that a load that had been given to me on the SASS wire was all wrong. I was using the lubed 1/2 inch wad and missing KD's which is hard to believe. When shot on paper they had a huge hole in the center of the pattern. I went to 3/8 unlubed wads and the problem went away. That is when I was shooting my 1887 with the Fiocchi paper hulls. I have started using the 1889 SXS copy of the Colt with the Nitro 27 hulls with a roll crimp put on by my drill press. I don't think he would steer you wrong to make a $6 sale Mako. I do know that the use of the lubed wad is not needed and no longer load them.

Fairshake,
Don't misunderstand me...
It was not my intent to besmirch Mr. Smith nor his products.  He offers a product that we should all be grateful for because not many cater to BP shooters (especially shotguns).   I guess my ultimate point is that there are not any comparative tests that I am aware of.   His advice about using an overshot card sounds reasonable, and probably even more so for keeping the drop tube on your loader lubricant free.  His concern is clay shooting with nice well dispersed shot patterns, our requirements are actually very different.  We should actually prefer overly center dense patterns to maximize shot on steel at relatively close ranges.

Once again, please don't take offense to my comments about your friend,  as I said he is by all accounts an honest businessman and serves our community of shooters.  My reply was specifically addressing Dick's comments about what is recommended on the Circle Fly site wasn't supported by Dick's testing. 

If you still find the post offensive or overly critical of Mr. Smith,  PM me and I will remove all references  that you find overly critical.  As you can see it is not my intention to pick a bone with Circle Fly wads, and I would not want to deprive him of business based on my comments.

Regards,
Mako

EDITED to remove any prejudicial content 11 March 2011

[john boy]

For reasons I can't sleuth out,  1200 fps seems to be about as fast as I can push shot with black powder out of any of my scatterguns. /quote]
Dick, one must remember - original gunpowder is a weak powder.  Tested recipes ...
http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Breechloading-SG-Shells.pdf

[Pony Racer]

I have shot lubed wads and unlubed wads in my shotguns.

I am not sure I would say it was harder cleaning out the shotguns after the unlubed wads but there was more "stuff" that came out of the barrels.

When I shoot my lubed wads - I still have to swab out the barrels but the stuff is very easy to clean out and is soft and moist.

When I have shot plastic wads out of the guns it was harder to get it all out until I discovered spraying in brake cleaner into the barrels and let sit while cleaning something else.  The cool thing about that was you get this cylindrical looking thing of crud that comes out the barrel but once out you are almost done.

Anyway, I still used lubed wads in my brass hulls and with my Squared load of 4.3cc 2f and 4.3cc mixed 7-8 shot never have any issues with our targets.

PR

[Montana Slim]

My secret.....I don't used "lubed wads"...I add melted lube to the shell after inserting the full wad column into the shell.
This is my method of keeping the powder/shot tube & wad guide fingers clean & dry.

Slim

[Lucky R. K.]

I am a bit suspicious of the claims on the Circle Fly site it seems awfully convenient that the problem with shot sticking to the face of a lubricated wad can be solved by adding an additional overshot card on top of the wad.  Of course he sells them as well.

Mako,

Are you suggesting that this claim is not true?  Are you saying that an overshot wad between the lubed wad and shot charge would make no difference in shot sticking to the lubed wad?  Are you saying that exhaustive tests should be done to determine if it makes a difference.  What about just using some common sense.

I think your comments about Greg Smith and Circle Fly wads are out of line.  Circle Fly Wads has been a class act going back to when Gary Butler owned it.  When Greg's father Larry bought the company he brought many years of shotgun experience and changes to the business.  Gary Butler and Larry Smith were shooting black powder shotguns(from flint doubles to cartridge guns) before many of the readers of this list were born.  You would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgable to ask advice about muzzleloading and black powder shotgun loading.  I want to do business with someone who knows the business.


I hope this doesn't come accross too strong, but I think your comments were out of line.

Lucky 

[Mako]

Mako,

Are you suggesting that this claim is not true?  Are you saying that an overshot wad between the lubed wad and shot charge would make no difference in shot sticking to the lubed wad?  Are you saying that exhaustive tests should be done to determine if it makes a difference.  What about just using some common sense.

I think your comments about Greg Smith and Circle Fly wads are out of line.  Circle Fly Wads has been a class act going back to when Gary Butler owned it.  When Greg's father Larry bought the company he brought many years of shotgun experience and changes to the business.  Gary Butler and Larry Smith were shooting black powder shotguns(from flint doubles to cartridge guns) before many of the readers of this list were born.  You would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgable to ask advice about muzzleloading and black powder shotgun loading.  I want to do business with someone who knows the business.


I hope this doesn't come accross too strong, but I think your comments were out of line.

Lucky  

Well Lucky, I'm sorry you feel that way, perhaps I will go back and modify my posts.

You are not coming on too strong, don't worry.  I made some strong statements myself.  That is why I told Fairshake I would modify my statements if that was the way people would take it.

Let's talk about the issue.  Remember now Mr. Smith is primarily concerned with shooting clays and birds.  As I said before our circumstances are very different.  This is the contention :

• The shot sticks to the wad.  How many pellets?  Using  7 ½ shot in a 12gage hull that is a pattern of Ø.740 inches which allows a base layer of 40 pellets  at 100% "stickage."  There are approximately 394 pellets in a 1 1/8 ounce  load of 7 ½ shot.  That is 10% of the entire load or .1125 ounces of shot.  So  354 pellets are totally unaffected if we assume a 100% "stickage" which is entirely unrealistic (that's actually more than a 1 ounce load).  At CAS ranges wads commonly hit the targets, just check the area in front of the shotgun targets.  This and the fact the wad is now weighted on the front gives it a higher probability of hitting the target.  So for constraining the pellets to a tight pattern which is desirable for knocking steel down the potential sticking does not appear to be an issue.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/ShotDIstribution.jpg

• The 354 pellets above the base layer will not be adversely affected by the pellets below them.  These pellets will still spread in a pattern controlled by the bore, choke, column height, bore pressure at the choke  and the exit velocity.  So if this is true then the only pellets of concern are the 40 pellets potentially stuck to the wad.


• Most choke patterns(except .410 bore) are determined using a 30" target at 40 yards.  Cylinder chokes and Skeet chokes are normally patterned at 25 yards.  Most of you know that a full choke will put 70% of your pellets on a 30" circle at 40 yards and a cylinder choke will put 70% of your pellets in the same circle at 25 yards (only 40% at 40 yards).  Now we are talking 25 to 40 yards here, realistically what ranges are your shotgun targets at your club shoot?  SASS recommended ranges are 8 to 16 yards.  I don't think I have ever shot anything at 16 yards in CASS except for the odd aerial target.   You should read Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns, by George Oberfell and Charles Thompson  to determine results below 15 yards.  Their testing was done at 10 yards using 7 inch circles to predict the pattern percentage at 40 yards.  This is probably our typical distance.


• Mr. Smith would be distressed by up to 40 pellets hitting at one spot at 10 yards within  7 inch circle because at 40 yards those pellets could possibly still be within that Ø.740 area.  For a clay shooter this is very undesirable.  For us it really doesn't matter unless you are engaging aerial targets and even then with a 1 1/8 ounce load you would have a pattern equivalent to a 1 ounce load.

Some could postulate that the wad could "bust" the pattern.  This can't happen because of the increased drag caused by the much greater cross section of the wad.  The shot cloud will fully develop in front of the wad and any pellets still attached to it.  This is a plastic wad and there isn't any sticking pellets, but it gives you a general idea:

http://people.rit.edu/andpph/photofile-c/shotgun-shot-seq-1g.jpg
Andrew Davidhazy,  School of Photographic Arts and Sciences,  Rochester Institute of Technology


So Lucky, what I was trying to point out is that there hasn't been any definitive testing of BP loads with lubricated wads at 10 yards I am aware of.  I haven't even seen any pattern sheets or percentages offered for the traditional ranges of 25 and 40 yards.  If you look at enough pattern sheets you will see holes in many of them.  This has been the pursuit of many, many shotgunners for years, that is the pursuit of the perfectly dense pattern.  You name it, buffers, separators, posts,  layers with cards, mylar wraps, tape, wads slit in every imaginable configuration.  Mr. Smith may have conducted tests but he didn't publish them.  The crew at BPI hasn't published anything about pellets sticking to wads I am aware of and I would be more suspicious of the OX-Yoke wads than the Circle Fly for holding on to a few pellets.

I operate in the world of numbers, hypothesis, testing and data.   I don't expect individuals such as yourself to conduct exhaustive tests. But I would prefer people making broad statements on a commercial site to support them with data or at the least anecdotal observations.   In some cases he does just that and does it well.  For instance Mr. Smith talks briefly about primers  and BP on his site.  He talks about a theory that has actually been debunked about magnum primers  giving a more complete burn of BP.  He then states he uses milder primers.  Based on his statement we can "assume" he doesn't subscribe to the theory.  He does however correctly state that any primer will work with BP, unfortunately this something a lot of people have been led to believe the opposite about, and Mr. Smith helps set the record straight. That is good info.

He  also talks about the release of pellets being key to a good even shot pattern and offers the over shot card as a solution.  But it is sort of like the primer discussion though.  He basically alludes that pellets stick .  You argue that a "reasonable man" (my words not yours) should do this...

What about just using some common sense.

(your words).  I try to use common sense.  I just know if I tried to make pellets stick to a "lubricated" wad (make note of that, not an adhesive coated wad).  I would be hard pressed to do it.

Refer back up to the sequence of pictures above.  Look at how the entire column has been enveloped in hot gases.  And those are nitro powder gases, not the much hotter BP gases.  Also, without the petals the entire wad column will be inundated with hot burning gases.  My common sense (if I have any) tells me that pellets sticking to the wad are probably not an issue.  Now on the other hand I have heard of wads or cards sticking to the bases of rifle bullets.  I have never seen this beyond a few yards, but it may happen because you get a tight seal between the flat base and the flat wad or card surface.  Shot distribution is full of pathways for gases to infiltrate between every pellet of the column.

Back to why I prefer information on sites marketing products to be supported with data... Look at how many are now defending what is published on the site.   Maybe that's not entirely accurate, you were defending his character which is laudable.  As I said before I have never heard an ill word about him or the company and I am the first to support anyone who serves the BP community.

Back to the concern...Even Dick said he had seen no evidence of it.  I will tell you now that neither have I, but with the caveat that I was shooting at 10 yards with a 20 inch barreled Colt's pattern SXS.  I was shooting hoping for shot clumping.  Fiber wads are already at a disadvantage in 3 inch chambers with long forcing cones and the gentler chokes we have in almost every modern shotgun whether it be domestic or imported.  I got some dents on the cardboard from the wads instead of penetration which would lead me to believe there weren't pellets sticking to the wads.  I would expect the momentum of any pellets to separate them from the wad upon impact and their residual inertia to be sufficient to make them at least "hole" the cardboard.  I noted some wads dents were within the 16inch plate I drew on the cardboard, but I didn't record the number, and really wasn't concerned about the wad terminal performance.

I'm just afraid that the "problem" with pellets sticking to lubricated wads is or will become "internet fact "now that it has been stated at least once on a forum and is written about on a company site.  It amazes me how many things I have written over the last twenty years online have popped back up either when I am conducting searches or have even been offered to me as supporting evidence.  I was in a meeting two years ago when a junior engineer presented quotes from a white paper to support his position .  After he was finished I told him the author was an idiot and could not be trusted.  He was shocked and looked terribly distressed  whereupon three or four people began to howl because they knew I was the original researcher and author.

Have you noticed the dearth of good information about BP and even shooting in general?  The things we write today will be written on the bathroom walls of the future as proof of the way it was in the "old days."  This is sort of the same way that "cowboys only loaded five," and you "always put grease on the front of a percussion cylinder to prevent chainfires" got started.  Well sort of the same... I'm convinced some writer started those.

While typing this I have searched myself and will correct my wicked ways.  I'll change the posts to make sure Mr. Smith and the Circle Fly company don't fall victim to the same problem I have been decrying .

Have a great day Lucky, and you too Fairshake,
Mako

[rickk]

This would be less subjective and more scientific if someone has a strobed or high speed camera and could duplicate the same photo sequence as the plastic wad, using instead a heavily lubed fiber wad.

I lack either, so can't help :-(

I tried to get my boss to let me get a HS camera, but haven't managed to convince him yet. They are getting cheaper.  I'll keep working on him.

There are plausible arguments for the wad blowing the pattern, and for it not blowing the pattern. There are also arguments as to which is the best beer. All that is subjective...Need data instead.

Anyone got a strobed or high speed camera?

[Lucky R. K.]

Well Mako I am winded just from reading that last post of yours. I must have upset you and that was not my intention.  The reason for my post was just what it said.  I thought your comments were out of line and I still do.  You implied that Greg was making a statement just to sell product instead of offering good valid information about loading.

I have absoutely no disire to see which one of us has "the bigger one". I am not into making those pretty pictures and I cannot quote mathematical formulas but I can offer suggestions about black powder shotgun loading based on more than thirty years of experience which includes muzzleloaders(both flint and percussion) and cartridge shotguns. From 1981 until about 2000 I competeted on the national level at Friendship Indiana in both skeet and trap in both flint and percussion classes.  I have won many national medals in these diciplines using guns I built.  Since about 2001 I have been competing in Cowboy Action shooting winning several state awards in the Frontiersman class.  I am not bragging here.  I tell you this so you know the basis for my comments.

Greg Smith is more than qualified to offer advice on black powder loading.  You state that he is mostly involved with sporting clays and bird shooting.  That is not exactly correct.  He offers a product to be used for any black powder shotgun discipline.  That's skeet, trap, sporting clays, hunting, Cowboy Actions shooting and anything else somebody wants to use a BP shotgun for.

If I read your post correctly your experience with a BP shotgun is with a 20" sxs at 10 yards.  While there is nothing wrong with this, why do you think you should be critizing someone who has been in the business all there lives and where does the experience for the advice you offer come from.

Lucky 

[Mako]

No Lucky, I wasn't upset...

You have totally missed the intent of my post.  It was to apologize to you and actually more so to Fairshake.  I see my efforts to explain are of naught.  That's too bad.

I have considerably more experience with BP than you give me credit for.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

I've used & tested both lubed & unlubed card wads with full bore 12 ga. BP Loads. In early 2002 I bought a new Norinco 12 ga. SxS and proceed to do testing every weekend for a month using La-Z-Boy recliner boxes at ranges from 10 to 20 yds. There was no question as to the patterns using such a huge clean target.    The only difference between lubed & unlubed wads was that the lubed wads left huge lube "boogers" on the target. 

One piece of advice I have adhered to is to use more "mass" on the target, i.e., more shot. This patterned better and also gave better knockdown on CAS targets as the Norinco has cylinder bores. As for cleaning differences, I don't know as I always cleaned the same: put the garden hose sprayer nozzle in the chamber and blast until the water runs clear. Run a patch or two down the bore followed by a Ballistol patch. Fastest way to clean BP from a SxS. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Gentlemen,

This I can say from experience.  When plastic wads were used in my scatterguns with black powder the cleanup was just plain awful.  I loaned one of my 12ga SxS to a good friend that shot plastic wadded bp ammo for a whole match through it and he tried to clean the gun after the match and couldn't get it clean.  When I got home I continued working on that gun and after much sweat I finally got the bores clean.  I've had the same experience with my 20 ga in some of my early matches.  Thus, I've shot only fiber wads with my bp loads since then.  I've never even bothered with plastic in my Win 87 10ga.  Those 2 ounce mobs of shot seem to get the job done regardless of pattern.  Hard on the shoulder if I'm having an arthritis day tho.

The forcing cones in my scatterguns vary by age of the guns.  I've found that the older ones pattern better with fiber wads and the newer ones benefit from a plastic shot cup.  That's to be expected.  However, even when I'm using a shot cup, I'm putting an over powder card and an abbreviated lubed fiber wad below the plastic shot cup.  That way they still clean up easy.  I'm thinkn' that the wads below the plastic prevent melting the plastic onto the barrel walls.

For SASS distance KD targets it's mass on the mark that takes 'em down.  I've found that the only time pattern quality makes a difference is with fliers or out of calibration KDs.  FWIW, I like both fliers and KDs because they tend to rule out the "golden BB".

DD-DLoS 

[Cookie]

I make my own fiber wads using the same material as the Circle Fly.

May I ask where you get your material?

Alternatively, what other material people have people used for home-made filler wads?

[Lucky R. K.]

May I ask where you get your material?

Alternatively, what other material people have people used for home-made filler wads?

Hi Cookie,

I get the material from my local Lowes store.  It comes in a sheet 4' x 8' x 1/2" and is used for house siding.  I refer to it as masonite although I do not know that is the correct term.  One sheet will make all the wads you would probably ever shoot.

I have also punched cushion wads out of felt.  Years ago I got a roll of half inch felt and used it until it was gone.  I soaked the wads with my lube and they worked very well.  When I went back to buy more felt the price had gone up to the point I thought it wasn't worth it.  I have since used the fiber material from Lowes and have been more than pleased with the performance.

If you can't find the material let me know and I will get the name for you.

Lucky   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have thought about using 1/2 inch thick fibre accoustic tile as cushion wads.  A gunmaker that has a lot of experience, starting with pinfire, recommended using "Bristol Board", which I think is what we are both thinking about.  I have a sample piece, but no tests yet.

[rifle]

With all the experienced shotgunners here maybe I can get some idea what to do to stop donut patterns from the muzzlleloader shotguns.
I know the longer the barrel with blackpowder muzzleloaders the better but my shotgun has 28 inch barrels.
Nothing I do helps to rid the hole in the middle of my patterns with a muzzleloader shotgn. I had a shotgun by Pedersoli 12 ga. that I got enough shot in the center to down a rabbit ethically at 27 yards. Used the standard 70-80gr. Fg or FFg powder with the over the powder card then the fiber cushion wad then the shot then the over the shot card. That type load chain never did well in my new 10 ga. or the newer 12 ga. with the screw in choke tubes even if I use full choke tubes.
The ten ga. shot better but not well with two wool wads over the powder and 2 wool wads over the shot. The new 12 ga. wth the chokes shoots best with the two wool wads on the powder and on the shot also.
Anywhoooo....with the muzzleloader shotguns I can't get a reliable pattern unless I use the donut patterns and aim high,low,right or left.
When I had a sheet of old cork and made over the shot cards from it the patterns improved dramatically in the old Pedersoli 12 ga. with the fixed chokes. I think the old cork broke in pieces when the gun fired.
I think the wads in front of the shot disrupt the pattern and also the wads behind the shot also disrupt the patterns.
I think having a load chain where the wad behind the charge slows as the shot enters the air and nothing in front of the shot is what would work.  I have an idea as to how that can be done but not the know how to make those type plastic wads.
Anywhooo....I can't get a good pattern without the donut hole in the middle. I built a single shot 12 ga. muzzlleloader shotgun once with  a 36 inch Melot barrel with a modified choke. I shot good patterns more than not. I downed a tom turkey with it at 35 yards. I loaded 1 and 3/4ths oz. of shot in that load.
Need help with the donut patterns. With the experience people noted here I hope to get a solution to the problem. I've lubed my cushion wads for years and years but also tried cushion wads without lube. I got better but still donut patterns with lubed wads.

[Montana Slim]

With cartridge shotgun loads, I'd generally say more shot or less powder....but I never played with a front-stuffer enough to determine the application of that practice to them.

My only ML shotgun experience has been with my Pa's double some years back. It's a 12 ga, forget the maker...but I loaded using essentially the same overpowder & fibre cushion I still use today in cartridge guns. The best loads tried for this gun were 65 grains FF & 1 oz of shot....was using #8s at that time. I used thin card overshot on top of the charge & no lube. I had a spray bottle of windshield washer solvent & gave a couple sprits down each barrel after loading. Used this setup for shooting clays.

I've heard others comment difficulty getting patterns with modern ML guns....I noted most of those folks guns had screw-in chokes & wondered if there was a connection. I believe the old-timers understood barrel dimensions & tapers to make the most out of period loading practices.

Regards,
Slim