Some thoughts from a greenhorn

[Cliff Fendley]

That looks good to me except I think it should read one NCOWS approved pistol and one NCOWS approved shotgun. Scratching out the SXS or single shot. I still cant understand why other shotguns are allowed in the other smokeless NCOWS classes and we are limiting this one to SxS or single shot. If we have to come up with another name so be it.

Personally if I do it I'll be using a SxS and probably my Remington New Army but I see no reason to limit others. Besides I think it's more fun to see a variety of guns.

I personally like the name Pioneer for the class. It seems like it covers the others but fits more persona, just my opinion though.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Roger,

I am liking your write up.  I'm with Cliff, allowing all NCOWS approved scatterguns.  With the majority of shooters, there really is no great speed advantage to the pump or lever over the SxS.  And Cliff is correct in noting that original '97's can still be found at very good prices in working condition.  Heck, the first two years I shot CAS, the only shotgun I had was a replica '87 I bought used.  I do think the SxS is likely the most authentic long arm for a Settler.  However, I think we need to allow the other shotguns.  If we don't, we'll be excluding some folks that like to shoot this class already.

The limit on 2 shots is a tough issue.  Down here, we really don't see that many muzzle loaders (maybe one a month).  We also have some very creative stage writers who occasionally have some FUN shotgun sequences needing 8 or 10 or 12 rounds to complete (including some flyers).  The 2 shot limit would really take the fun out of the stage for the Settler class.

[Tascosa Joe]

In the day, SxS were relatively expensive.  LC Smith and Parker field grade hammer guns were 20-40 dollars.  There were thousands of Belgian imports that were sold thru out North American, but they still cost around $20.  These guns were sold under many names.  Parker, LC Smith, Meridian, and others built many SxS for hardware suppliers and stores around the country under trade names, but all of the SxS were not cheap.  Some were less expensive than others.  When the pump guns became available they cost in the teens, more affordable to the average person.  I believe the most common gun for the Settler was the single barrel shotgun.  Most of the single barrels cost around $6. 

I tend to agree with Roger on current cost the low end SXS are a good econmical way to start.  I think allowing the pump guns is OK. 

[Major 2]

SUPPOSE IT READ THIS WAY ? edited

A Proposal

The addition and acceptance of a new shooting class.

    The Class as a companion to the existing Working Cowboy (2 gun requirement)
I propose a class be offered for one Shotgun & one pistol, to be called
Settler or Pioneer.
The course of fire would be scored similarly as the current Working Cowboy class, allowing only for pistol and Shotgun targets to be engaged. The Settler,Pioneer class could stand-alone as Working Cowboy does.
     In addition, I'd purpose, a team course of fire combining Working Cowboy & Settler,Pioneer.
To meet minimum rules for team competition there must be 3 two-person teams.
Team member one is the Working Cowboy (with one pistol & one rifle)
Team member two is the Settler, Pioneer  (with one pistol & one NCOWS approved shotgun)  .
Shotguns are limited to 2 shots   ( keeping an even playing field among Cartridge & Muzzle-loaders )
Pistols may be NCOWS approved Cap & Ball , Conversions or approved SA or DA revolvers.
The course of fire & targets are the same as the 4 gun Stage, with the exception as shooter 1 & shooter 2 are teamed & timed as the combined class. Team Shooters one & two may alternate persona as they wish, allowing for a greater involvement for both team members.  
 
Credence, as Pioneers & Settlers moved west in the later half on the 1800's more likely than not a Shotgun accompanied these hardy soles.
Often these Shotguns were side-by-side muzzle-loaders, single shot Fowlers or break open breach loaders.
They were common and plentiful and somewhat inexpensive to acquire.  The main uses of these were for foraging.  A settler might have pistol or perhaps a rifle as well.
It was hardly commonplace for him to own a battery of all three or more.

   Reasoning, We often are helping and offering new interest for and actively seeking new blood to our hobby. As the costs have escalated in acquiring the "KIT", I reason
a man can buy a C&B Revolver and a SXS shotgun as the most cost effective entry level . These are the most common firearms a Settler, Pioneer might have possessed and for the same reasons today as then... COST.
The appeal to this for a newcomer is high, as he can perhaps team with a more seasoned Working Cowboy.

I Roger Ragland member # 3031 respectfully submit this format  for further
membership input.  

[Irish Dave]

Major2:

As a suggestion and based on comments at the Congress meeting, I'd recommend that you separate the establishment of the class from the team concept and present them as separate proposals.

1) The simpler the proposal, the easier it should be to "work out bugs" and reach concensus;
2) That way, the Congress could approve the class (if it so chooses) even if there was opposition to the team approach.

Just a thought.

[Will Ketchum]

No dog in this fight since I abhor shotguns, but like Tascosa Joe said the most common cartridge shotgun for the pioneer, pilgrim, sodbuster, honey yoker was the single shot.  It provided everything required.  I can't recall ever seeing a picture of a pioneer with a pump or lever and very few doubles.  The pictures you see of those are of well to do hunters, railroad guards and express men.
According to "Firearms of The American West" the muzzle loading shotgun remained popular and in common use long after the breech loading guns were readily available as late as 1884.

I really don't care what we call it.   Personally I would like a 2 revolver class with no long gun.  If we wouldn't have changed it that is what I would have used if I ever get the things together to join the Originals.  

Will Ketchum

[bowiemaker]

Will, you hit  on a key point I was trying to make in starting this thread. I really have no interest in shotguns either. I would buy one only if that is the least expensive way to gear up for NCOWS.

I would like to shoot the pistol that I have, and someday add a rifle when I can afford it or when I find a deal on an approved rifle. I really want to be a part of NCOWS and get together with our local posse to do some shooting. If I could take the approved pistol that I have, dress in some appropriate attire and go shoot I would already be an active dues paying member.

I know, I can and will do that by borrowing a rifle, but the point is why not make it easier and less expensive to get people started? I cannot be the only interested party who is thinking this whole thing might be more trouble and expense than it is worth.

[Books OToole]

The "Sodbuster" class was first propoed 2-3 years ago by Trap in his Judge's Column.  At that time it was a pistol and a single barrel shotgun. (A double could be used but only one shell at a time could be loaded.)

I personally like the team concept, but I agree with Irish Dave, it should be a separate proposal.  I like the idea of two team members finding each other at the match and not even shooting together.  A Working cowboy in search of a Sodbuster for team score purposes.  Working cowboy A has his time added at the end of the match to Sodbuster/Settler A's time.  The you see which team A, B, C, or D had the best score.

For what its worth.

Books

[Major 2]

 SUPPOSE IT READ THIS WAY ?  3rd edit

Proposal A

The addition and acceptance of a new shooting class.

The Settler/Pioneer Class as a companion to the existing Working Cowboy (2 gun requirement)
I propose a class be offered for one Shotgun & one pistol, to be called
Settler or Pioneer.
The course of fire would be scored similarly as the current Working Cowboy class, allowing only for pistol and Shotgun targets to be engaged. The Settler, Pioneer class could stand-alone as Working Cowboy does.
  In  an attempt even the playing field among Cartridge & Muzzle-loaders, Shotguns could be limited to 2 shots .
If Muzzle-Loaders are not used, the number of required shots could be incresed .
Pistols may be one NCOWS approved Cap & Ball , Conversions or approved SA or DA revolvers & one NCOWS approved shotgun.

 
Proposal B  

I purpose, a team course of fire combining Working Cowboy & Settler,Pioneer.
To meet minimum rules for team competition there must be 3 two-person teams.
Team member one is the Working Cowboy (with one pistol & one rifle)
Team member two is the Settler, Pioneer  (with one pistol & one NCOWS approved shotgun)  .
Shotguns are limited to 2 shots   ( keeping an even playing field among Cartridge & Muzzle-loaders )
Pistols may be NCOWS approved Cap & Ball , Conversions or approved SA or DA revolvers.
The course of fire & targets are the same as the 4 gun Stage, with the exception as shooter 1 & shooter 2 are teamed & timed as the combined class. Team Shooters one & two may alternate persona as they wish, allowing for a greater involvement for both team members.  
 
Credence, as Pioneers & Settlers moved west in the later half on the 1800's more likely than not a Shotgun accompanied these hardy soles.
Often these Shotguns were side-by-side muzzle-loaders, single shot Fowlers or break open breach loaders.
They were common and plentiful and somewhat inexpensive to acquire.  The main uses of these were for foraging.  A settler might have pistol or perhaps a rifle as well.
It was hardly commonplace for him to own a battery of all three or more.

   Reasoning, We often are helping and offering new interest for and actively seeking new blood to our hobby. As the costs have escalated in acquiring the "KIT", I reason
a man can buy a C&B Revolver and a SXS shotgun as the most cost effective entry level . These are the most common firearms a Settler, Pioneer might have possessed and for the same reasons today as then... COST.
The appeal to this for a newcomer is high, as he can perhaps team with a more seasoned Working Cowboy.

I Roger Ragland member # 3031 respectfully submit this format  for further
membership input.  

[Tascosa Joe]

Does anybody think a subclass for the muzzle loading shotgun would be appropriate.  I know I would not like to go to a match with my SxS and be limited to 12 shotgun shots for the entire match.

Last match at our club, a gentleman showed up and shot Sodbuster.  Never being on the ground when anybody shot Sodbuster, I had written one of the 6 stages with no Shotgun.  You would have thought I killed somebody.

Roger, other than that both of your proposals are great.

BTW I hope to see you in May in SC.

T-Joe

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Does anybody think a subclass for the muzzle loading shotgun would be appropriate.  I know I would not like to go to a match with my SxS and be limited to 12 shotgun shots for the entire match.
T-Joe

I'm with you Joe.

The 2 shot limit is making a rule restricting the majority (cartridge shotguns) for a very small minority (muzzle loaders).

Always gotta remember:  We are first and foremost a shooting organization.  People come to our matches to enjoy firing their guns.  Restrictions on that activity will restrict enjoyment.

[Major 2]

Thanks  T-Joe 

I know of one fellow wanting to shoot a Muzzle-loader SXS.
He does not own one yet , he does have a TTn though.

I do know there is an SXS Muzzle loader made today ...but its pricey $900+
That would leave all the originals that can be had in the $150 on up range.


Yes Sir I'll be going to SC, with maybe 3 more CCC posse members

[Patrick Henry Brown]

We have two shooters that regularly shoot SxS M/L shotguns. One has actually come with two of them and shot in BP Duelist. The shotguns can be purchased for $300-500 on the used market in very nice condition. I'm speaking of repros made by Pietta and CVA. What one fellow has done is to shoot a cartridge sxs and then his M/L sxs. There are work arounds for this, so I think restricting it to two shots is counter-productive. Both of these shooters are veteran shooters and like Panco, and myself, they like to shoot 4-guns. I doubt either one would shoot the "settler" catagory. When I shoot Sodbuster at our club, I want to shoot as many shotgun rounds as possible.

[Major 2]

For the record ..I'm not in favor of limiting it to just two shots...
I'm only posting the ideas ... ultimatley arriving at the wording the majority would approve.
(getting the bugs out as I was instructed to do)

I do embrace the team aspect , because I am unaware of the other camp offering Team Competition
or even a two gun ( WC or Settler ) class on a national level.

I originally excluded the 87 & 97 because of their higher cost both to aquire & to make function reliably.
I have no dog in the fight , should the 87/97 be approved for Settler.

I am in favor of the class as both a stand alone and as team shoot on a National level
Simply, it is cost efective for new shooters or old shooters on a budget.
It fits our Historical outlook , and the Golden age of westward expansion.

It will stand as local class for the CCC Possi in hopes one day it will be approved Nationally

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Not intended as any criticism Major. In fact, I applaud your efforts. My response was intended to let folks know that we do have regular shooters, at least at Tyler, who do use ML shotguns. For the price of a ML sxs, you can easily afford a 93/97, 97, or cartridge sxs. And then again, you can always reload on the clock.

The team thing is GREAT!!! Keep pluggin' away and let me know if I can help.

[Books OToole]

As a historical purist; here's an idea.

A "settler" mostly likely would not have had a a riot gun; lets make a minimum barrel lenght;  say 28 inches.
(The long barreled shotguns are generally cheaper.)

If you want to use a '97, that's great, but is has to have a 30 inch barrel.

Books

[Patrick Henry Brown]

As a historical purist; here's an idea.

A "settler" mostly likely would not have had a a riot gun; lets make a minimum barrel lenght;  say 28 inches.
(The long barreled shotguns are generally cheaper.)

If you want to use a '97, that's great, but is has to have a 30 inch barrel.

Books

Are you willing to impose the same requirements on sxs's and single-shots?

[Books OToole]

Are you willing to impose the same requirements on sxs's and single-shots?

Sure.

But I have another idea.  If the concensus is not to limit the type of shotgun, or the number of shots from same: 

Let's call the class:   Express Agent.

Most farmers tended to agree with that Sage that said about revolvers:  "I never had much use for one."

Books

[Yuma Kid]

All,
Let's not over think this, just make it any legal handgun and any legal shotgun.  Just like Working Cowboy, this may not just be a new shooter category, just because that's the way it was conceived.

We only restrict shotguns in one class which is "Pistoleer" with the restriction being 2 shots.  We have never restricted the use a muzzle loading shotgun in any other class, of course it would come with some self-imposed disadvantages.  And I have never heard of anyone wanting to have us change a shooting class just so they can use their muzzle loading shotgun and not take misses.  I have used a single shot shotgun in matches and never expected to have a club change the rules to suit what I was doing.  There will never be a completely level playing field with pumps vs SxS; single action vs double action; solid frame vs break-top; etc. If I want to use a muzzle loader or a single shot, its my choice and I shouldn't expect the organization to make me a specific category. 

I may want to shoot one Cap & Ball revolver, a Spencer Rifle & a single shot shotgun at the same time.  Let's call it the Yuma Kid Catagory.
Yuma

[Major 2]

"Let's not over think this, just make it any legal handgun and any legal shotgun.  Just like Working Cowboy, this may not just be a new shooter category, just because that's the way it was conceived. "


exactly ...the idea is to tweek it toward approval