Some thoughts from a greenhorn

[Major 2]

Cliff

Thank you for your imput... just what I wanted interest & discussion 

Right now Sodbuster Pioneer or Settler (what ever we decide to call it) is still a proposal.

I hope it will become a class...and I sure there will be some tweeking.

However,  My original thought was to target the years We (NCOWS) embraces 1865- 1899 placed within the Golden Years of Western expansion.
By in large, the SXS or single shot Shotgun would fit , where the 97 Pump would fall within the last 2 years of our target era. By in large, it was Double that was most common, Singles & Fowlers as well.

Granted, your $180 SCORE ! for the 97 is a great price, it is probably an exception.
I see these @ $600 + for originals and Replica's in the $550 range in my neck o the woods.
An old SXS Cresent or Fox can be found reasonably and a Stoeger or Bakil maybe ever a Rossi
in the $300 range ..I see Steogers @ $280 sometimes.
Now add that to a NIB Remington C&B around $200 or used $165-175
There even good deals on Cartridge revolvers.
With a little effort one could get in to Sodbuster Pioneer or Settler, in the $400 range for both guns.

Recently RCJ sold his Factory Remington Cartridge conversion in 45LC for $300 ( a steal )
It was like new.  if one added to that a $150 old Closet queen SXS he or she would be in for the pound not a ton.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Cliff

Thank you for your imput... just what I wanted interest & discussion  

Right now Sodbuster Pioneer or Settler (what ever we decide to call it) is still a proposal.

I hope it will become a class...and I sure there will be some tweeking.

However,  My original thought was to target the years We (NCOWS) embraces 1865- 1899 placed within the Golden Years of Western expansion.
By in large, the SXS or single shot Shotgun would fit , where the 97 Pump would fall within the last 2 years of our target era. By in large, it was Double that was most common, Singles & Fowlers as well.

Major2,

I think limiting the pump shotgun is not prudent.  Lots of folks poke a finger at the Winchester 97 not being a "true part" of the Old West since it arrived so late in the era.  We must remember that 3 other pump action scatterguns preceeded it:

Spencer 1882
Burgess 1883 (very different stle of pump, but still a pump)
Wincheser 1893 (& there is a very nice replica that shows up at our matches in Texas pretty regularly).

Documentation can be found placing these guns on the Frontier during our period.

[Cole Bluesteele]

Since we have been offering a Sod Buster class for a while now, my vote on that issue is obvious.  What I can add her eis that I REALLY like the team idea of this proposal.  An old hand with all four guns could really do some recruiting with this concept.  Bring a new shooter and team up with him for his first NCOWS shoot.  Great idea to my way of thinking.  One thought, could the two shooters participating in the team event switch off who shoots what?  Say in a six a stage match could each shoot three stages Working Cowboy and three Sod Buster?  Not wanting to make it manditory just an option.

Cole

[French Jack]

Sounds to me like a good place for an 1887 lever action........

[Major 2]

Thank you ...I added nothing for or against roll switching in the porposal  , it's not in the rules
there for why not  

Pancho.... your point is taken...However concidering the rareity of Spencer  
or a Burgess bought of found for bargain price , showing up ( I could be wrong )
There is a 93 Winchester Replica ...
The concept of the proposal is Class to allow the least start-up Budget .

I just think those Spencer's , Burgess's or Winchester 1893's would be costly.
Is it my understanding SASS does not allow any of these for safety reasons ?  

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Major:

The 93/97 is a very safe weapon. SASS has issues with it that make no real sense. It has been approved here in NCOWS. A chicom 97 or 93/97 can be purchased for the same or less money than a Stoeger SxS. Having dabbled extensively with the old Crescents, American Gun Co, Meridens and AJ Aubreys, I can tell you that getting one that is safe to use will be at least $200 or more. I bought my IAC 09 series 97 off the SASS Wire Classifieds for $250 last year. I fully support the catagory proposed and especially like the Team proposal. I will state that we've allowed all approved NCOWS shotguns in our "Sodbuster" matches and have had no adverse consequences that I'm aware of. My $0.02 worth., YMMV. However this is decided concerning the pump vs. non-pump side issue, this is an outstanding proposal and needs to pass. It only legitimizes fully what is already being done on the local match level.

[Cole Bluesteele]

Not lobbying for adding or omitting pumps/lever shotguns, but just to clarify the SASS decision to allow only the 97's. 

When the action was taken regarding the pump shotguns, SASS was/is concerned about the safety of the Marlin manufactured pump, which even Marlin ecommends not be shot.  There was no concern about the others beyond the concern of shooting any original designed for black powder loads. 

SASS outlawed the reproduction of Winchester '93 because it was in Coyote Cap owns words a '97 with the larger port of the '93.  No comment on the rationale involved, I was at the TG meeting when Cap lobbied for its approval.  The newlly manufactured is safe as it has none of the drawbacks of the original '93 which Cap stated. 

The end result of the combination of the Marlin safety issue, th econcern of some one using an unsafe load in an original and the '93 reproduction not really being a '93 led to SASS banning of all pumps with the exception of the Winchester 1897 and reproductions thereof.

Cole

[Major 2]

I knew of the SASS Ruling...never studied the rhime or reasons ....

I'd have no objection "if" the proposal were to pass.
For a discussion of a amendment of the new class , and it stand a vote as a amendment.

personally, I'd be opposed simply on the budget & credence ( 93/97 coming the last two years of our target era , within the westward expansion ) The 87 is pricey , so it too would be out there, on a budget .
... but let the majority will , be done....

[Cliff Fendley]

I have an original 93 and would never shoot it for safety sake.

Concerning the 97's and the predecessor. I would have to check the numbers but I'd bet there were nearly as many 97's made in just 98 and 99 as there were 93's all together and I've been told many of those 93's were supposedly recalled for 97's although I've never seen documentation of that. The 93 and 97 shared serial number during 98 and 99 but I think only like 2 or 300 93's were made that last year. The frames on the 93's were too weak for smokeless loads even though they are very similar guns.

The 93 was made in 93 so that was far from the end of our period. You can still pick up plain jane 97's that are nothing to look at but still in fine working order for a couple hundred bucks. My recent find for 180 was not an exception because I've bought others and stumble up on ones for that price range fairly regular.

I can appreciate the thinking of those that don't like them for their late production in our period but think it should be up to the individual to decide and build their persona around the time frame and firearms they are using as long as the firearms are on the approved list. I don't have a dog in the fight but when new shooters come along the more options they have to get into the game the better it is. They can fine tune things later on. 

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I don't have a dog in the fight but when new shooters come along the more options they have to get into the game the better it is.  

Very well said Cliff and an important point in building our ranks.


I should also add:  At the two clubs here in Texas we almost always have a few veteran members shooting Sodbuster.  I don't think we need to limit the ideology of this class to new shooters on a budget.   I think everybody can enjoy this category.

Sodbuster likely represents what most honest people would carry if they were headed into trouble.

When there is a bump in the night at Pancho's Hacienda, a shotgun in hand with a pistol for back-up sure makes the night less dangerous.

[bowiemaker]

Any updates about the proposals for the sodbuster class or teams?

[Books OToole]

Any updates about the proposals for the sodbuster class or teams?

The Congress is real shy about creating new catagories.  After some discussion, the most vocal was negative&*, the motion to create the Settler Class (1 pistol & 1 shotgun) was tabled.  Not killed.  Several posses have a similar catagory and they are going to refine the idea for the next congress meeting.

Books


* I personally believe that the majority were for the concept.

[Major 2]

Any updates about the proposals for the sodbuster class or teams?

YES ...it was tabled for further review, the count was 16 to table, 14 not to table, 3 or 4 abstains I beleive.
...I believe it will be reviewed in 6 months after Regional possi's have a chance To work out the bugs as it were.
Generally, it was well received and might not have  been tabled had it not had the omission of Pumps.

Poncho said above
"I don't think we need to limit the ideology of this class to new shooters on a budget.   I think everybody can enjoy this category. "
there is no provision to limit it to new shooter (nothing is in the proposal) in fact I believe it should allow for a roll changes
should the team wish ...Working Cowboy switches with the Settler on any stage if they wish.

BTW most @ the Meeting would like the class to be call ( SETTLER )

There was discussion about just two shots in Shotgun to allow for SXS muzzleloaders a fair chance
with Breech loaders and pump if they are included ...

[Tascosa Joe]

I think Books and I decided after the meeting to enter the name Pig Farmer for this new class.  Has kind of a ring to it, dont it?

[Texas Lawdog]

T Joe, As a retired cop, the term "Pig" makes me nervous.

[Cliff Fendley]

I didn't like the idea of omission of the pumps from the start. If it's a smokeless class then any legal smokeless shotgun should be allowed.

[Major 2]

The reasoning behind excluding Pumps was more the era and the cost aspect.

In my neck of the wood,  a 97 is  $550 on up, for working original plain model , over $500 for a replica
It's 87's in the same ballpark or more, even if you find one...and they have stopped importing them.

I reasoned, a Stoeger can be had used around $280-300 add a C&B in $200's and your in under $500.

Now if we, limit it to two shots ....then the only disadvantage is to muzzle loaded Fowler's 
Pump , Levers and SXS including muzzle-loader SXS ( capped on the clock ) the others loaded on the clock and are on an equal
play field .

I'd go for that   

assuming there are more CAS shooters shooting 97's that CAS shooters that might consider a single Fowler ...you think ?

These are the kinda bugs, we well try to work out

[Cliff Fendley]

I see no reason to have more than two shots so the SXS are on level with the pump and lever.

I can understand where they were coming from on cost but you never know what someone has sitting around that they can use so why put that limit on the class.

What is the price of a new Stoeger coach gun? I thought they were around 400 bucks, I can find nice original 97's for that without looking real hard.

Regardless a new shooter can still get in cheap with this class and more options make it that much easier for them to find something reasonable.

[Major 2]

SUPPOSE IT READ THIS WAY ?
A Proposal

The addition and acceptance of a new shooting class.

    The Class as a companion to the existing Working Cowboy (2 gun requirement)
I propose a class be offered for one Shotgun & one pistol, to be called
Settler, Pioneer or Sod Buster (I can't take credit for the Sodbuster handle, credit that to Poncho Peacemaker)
The course of fire would be scored similarly as the current Working Cowboy class, allowing only for pistol and Shotgun targets to be engaged. The Settler/Sodbuster/Pioneer class could stand-alone as Working Cowboy does.
     In addition, I'd purpose, a team course of fire combining Working Cowboy & Settler/Sodbuster/Pioneer.
To meet minimum rules for team competition there must be 3 two-person teams.
Team member one is the Working Cowboy (with one pistol & one rifle)
Team member two is the Settler, Pioneer or Sod Buster (with one pistol & one NCOWS approved SXS or single shot shotgun)  no pump or lever action shotguns permitted .
Shotguns are limited to 2 shots ( keeping an even playing field among Cartridge & Muzzle-loaders )
Pistols may be NCOWS approved Cap & Ball , Conversions or approved SA or DA revolvers.
The course of fire & targets are the same as the 4 gun Stage, with the exception as shooter 1 & shooter 2 are teamed & timed as the combined class. Team Shooters one & two may alternate persona as they wish, allowing for a greater involvement for both team members.  
 
Credence, as Pioneers & Settlers moved west in the later half on the 1800's more likely than not a Shotgun accompanied these hardy soles.
Often these Shotguns were side-by-side muzzle-loaders, single shot Fowlers or break open breach loaders.
They were common and plentiful and somewhat inexpensive to acquire.  The main uses of these were for foraging.  A settler might have pistol or perhaps a rifle as well.
It was hardly commonplace for him to own a battery of all three or more.

   Reasoning, We often are helping and offering new interest for and actively seeking new blood to our hobby. As the costs have escalated in acquiring the "KIT", I reason
a man can buy a C&B Revolver and a SXS shotgun as the most cost effective entry level . These are the most common firearms a Settler/Sodbuster/Pioneer might have possessed and for the same reasons today as then... COST.
The appeal to this for a newcomer is high, as he can perhaps team with a more seasoned Working Cowboy.

I Roger Ragland member # 3031 respectfully submit this format  for further
membership input.  

Thank You
With appoligies to Bowiemaker, I seem to have highjacked your thread 

[bowiemaker]

No apology necessary. I am glad to see this being discussed and I hope it will be adopted. My whole point was to make NCOWS as affordable as possible to get people involved. I imagine that many would eventually get more guns and get more involved just as people do with any sport or hobby. I stil think if there was something for those with just one pistol or rifle you would get a lot more people giving it a try and getting hooked.