56-56 barrel liner

[5judge]

I acquired a refinished M.1860 Spencer 56-56 carbine for informal shooting. It's been refinished and is otherwise a good candidate to play with. Accuracy is awful. Peter Schiffers in his carbine book agrees and opines it's the fault of the rifling twist. I'm contemplating asking Robert Hoyt, who has lined a number of my Civil war weapons, if he presses liners in Spencers. My question is: does anyone out there have experience with a barrel lined 56-56 Spencer? I am aware that it might well be more practical to have it sleeved and chambered for 56-50, but wish for several reasons to keep the old girl in the original calibre. Thanks.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Before you do any cutting, hacking, sawing or relining maybe you should share with us what are your loads as maybe your loads are the problem. 

[5judge]

    Well, I'm using the Rapine heeled Spencer bullet cast from alloyed centrefire pistol lead recovered from the backstop of a local range, lead I believe to be fairly hard. I've tried tube-dropped FFFg, compressed 777 and compressed Pyrodex. Primers are large rifle. Cases are mixed, but fired in source-specific batches. Lube has been SPG, though I'm about to try Alox. I'm getting "groups" (a loose usage of the word) of fourteen or more inches of deflection at 50 yards with a deal more vertical dispersion. The outsized vertical dispersion is likely at least partially a function of my aged eyes coping with the Spencer's sorry open sights. This shooting is smoothbore accuracy at that range. The bore is dark but with strong rifling and no particularly rough spots. The bullets hit paper head-on, no tumbling.
    I guess a first question should be: does anyone do significantly better out there in Cascity Land with a 56-56 Spencer carbine and, if so, why. Schiffers in his book "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality" sure didn't. He holds the accuracy problem lays in the slow 1:49 Spencer rifling twist. May be so, but he concurrently found the M.1863 Sharps shot well and it has a bullet of like diameter and even greater weight likewise coming out of a barrel with that 1:49 twist.
    Pards, any help would be appreciated.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Try Real BP FFg and harder lead.

[Herbert]

have you got the 546375 or the535370 rapine 56-56 mould,the 56-56 carbines I have worked with all has taperd bores and all neesed the 546375 bullet for best acuracy,also if the flash holes in the cases have been enlarged you will get terible groops,you can also try fire-laping the barell ,this allmost always improves acuracy and check the crown,damage here will destroy acuracy,as mentioned a good FF BP will give you your best acuracy(Goex express or Swiss)when compresing the powder always youse a compresion die so the the bullet will dot be deformed when seated(you can modify the expansion die to do this)I have found the 56-56 to be reasonably acurate loaded carfully should get 4 inch groups at 100yds

[5judge]

Herbert: I've a friend who constructed a powder compressor and crowned the muzzle (I've read all the threads on this and other Spencer forums). The flash holes on the brass do appear to be different diameters. I'll try using the brass with the smaller holes. My mould is a 535370 Rapine. You wouldn't happen to have a spare 546375 would you? Anybody???

[Two Flints]

    "I've read all the threads on this and other Spencer forums"

I thought this was the only one

[Herbert]

Herbert: I've a friend who constructed a powder compressor and crowned the muzzle (I've read all the threads on this and other Spencer forums). The flash holes on the brass do appear to be different diameters. I'll try using the brass with the smaller holes. My mould is a 535370 Rapine. You wouldn't happen to have a spare 546375 would you? Anybody???

A quick fix for oversize flash holes is to put a milk carton wad between the case and the powder,then compress the powder on this(it is not as good as new brass but greatly improves acuracy)I would sort the cases by flash hole size and try this it has never failed to improve acuracy for me

[5judge]

Hummm. Does one punch a hole in the wad? use regular or magnum rifle primers. This is all very helpful.

And, Two Flints, I of course mispoke. I have picked up useful Spencer oddments on the N-SSA site, though it doesn't hold a patch next to this one

[Fox Creek Kid]

The cases with enlarged flash holes are probably for blanks & I would not use those. Use the normal sized flash holed cases. I also would not fool with a compression die at this time as that complicates matters and changes things that do not need to be fooled with for now. You need to find a load that gets you in the "ballpark" and only then should you tweak things ONE AT A TIME to try and squeeze out the nth degree of accuracy. Try a drop tube for your powder as it is far better than a compression die IMO. Also, clean & brush the hell out of the bore with a good modern cleaner like MPRO7 to get out any lead and old carbon before you do anything. 

[Herbert]

Hummm. Does one punch a hole in the wad? use regular or magnum rifle primers. This is all very helpful. And, Two Flints, I of course mispoke. I have picked up useful Spencer oddments on the N-SSA site, though it doesn't hold a patch next to this one.

do not punch a hole in the wad,just dit a .390 size milk carton cut wad in the bottom of the case an put the powder on the top,I have also found that the only way I can get enough powder in the case and not deform the bullet is to youse a compresion die ,it also seems to burn cleener when compresed,for primers I youse ICI LPP for two reasons (1) they sit below the levell of the bass of the case(eliminating high primers which can cause magizine detinations(2)I just get better acuracy with PP,ICI are also the hardest PP I can find

[Arizona Trooper]

Ballard Rifle and Cartridge Co. made a bunch of cases with enlarged flash holes for some reason. These are turned from regular free machining brass, not unleaded cartridge case brass. They don't work very well, and tend to split the necks.

I would strongly disagree that the Spencer rifle has the "wrong twist". My original shoots well enough to win medals, even though the bore is not the greatest. The Rapine bullet grease grooves are way too small to carry enough lube for a rifle length barrel. The are way smaller than original Spencer bullets. I had nothing but problems with them. Get the Owziak mold, which has much bigger grease grooves.

Spencer barrels have tapered groove depth. If you slugged 0.535", it's a safe bet it's 0.538" to 0.540" just ahead of the chamber. One solution is go to a softer lead. I like 1 lb wheelweights to 2 lb pure lead. When you dig bullets out of the backstop, there should be no sign of the seating heal around the base, it should be expanded into the rifling. If you do shoot hard bullets, they have to be oversize for the groove diameter at the throat, not the muzzle.

One other thing, have you shot your rifle in? Originals put back in service usually require 100 rounds or more before they will settle down and hit. I don't know why, but it a rare antique that shoots well right off. Be patient and keep shooting!

My load: ~30 gr. GOEX CTG or Swiss FF, a card wad between powder and bullet (desk calendar pasteboard is perfect for making these) LR magnum primer, Owziak bullet and 50-50 bees wax/olive oil lube.

Bobby does first class work, but don't line your rifle unless you really have to. It will hurt the value unless you sell to an N-SSA shooter. At one national, I ran into Bobby on my way off the line after shooting second best on the team I picked up with (everyone else had Henrys). He looked down my barrel and commented; "Most of the barrels I line look better than this!"

[Two Flints]

5judge,

I forgive you

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Arizona Trooper would you be able to give a bit more imformation on the Owziak 56-56 mould,I have also noticed over the years that old rifles no mater how good,if they have not been fired for years do not shoot to there potential unless run in again

[El Supremo]

Hello Herbert and Two Flints:

Are there other issues involved when using large pistol primers in cases designed for rifle primers?

Most respected reloading manuals indicate that all primers should be seated to the BOTTOM of the pocket for correct ignition and to prevent both high primers and misfires.

The DIAMETERS of large pistol and standard rifle primers are supposed to be the same, but the large pistol primer's sidewall height is less.
Seating a large pistol primer just below the case head surface in a case designed for a rifle primer may mean the large pistol primer is not properly seated.  This condition can allow a firing pin to push the primer to the bottom of the pocket at which point the chamber pressure slams the shorter primer back against the block face leading to impact damage over time.

Perhaps one of our experts can share their wisdom.

Respectfully,
El Supremo

[Herbert]

I have shot 1000s of rounds in black powder cartridge rifles yousing LPP and have never had any problems with damaged breach faces,most serious BPC shooters youse LPP in there long range BPC rifles,as for seating you always check that the primer is fully seated for proper ignition and to aviod high primers in magizine rifles

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Herbert:

While primer pockets are usually the same depth.  It is the sidewall height of lpp's that allows for deeper seating than flush.  In addition most lpp's have a thinner cup than lrp's, which is why SIERRA strongly recommends not using lpp's in rifle ctg's. OK, we rarely approach smokeless pressures with straight BP loads.  So called "duplex" loads are a different topic.

The respected custom bp case manufacturer I've used cautioned not to use lpp's in cases that have pockets dimensioned for large rifle primers.    He makes Spenser cases for either lpp'sor lrp's.

I am aware of the use of lpp's in smaller bore BP ctg's, but rifle primers with their stronger cups have performed very consistently in my 40, 45, 50 caliber rifles.  I'm only concerned about making sure that we all understand the issues.  I just sensed a possible safety issue and will now shut up.

Very respectfully,
El Supremo (Kevin)

[5judge]

Keep this stuff coming, Pards. I'm soaking it up. I've reloaded since the mid-1960s, all manner of modern and black powder cartridges. My friend Wormey and I have come late in life to 56-56 Spencers. They're giving us fits. I've not been so frustrated since I first fooled around with a Burnside. There isn't a world of information specific to the 56-56 out there. Some major gunwriter once observed: "the only interesting guns are accurate guns". That's not entirely true; the 56-56 Spencer IS altogether interesting. It would just be a deal more satisfying if my targets didn't look like I'd thrown a handful of .52" rocks at them.

[Arizona Trooper]

The 56-56 mold I like is made by Mike Owziak. He is a master machinist and advertises in the N-SSA magazine "The Skirmish Line". My magazines are in storage, or I'd give you his contact information. I have posted it before, so you should be able to find him in a search of this site if you have the time to dig around a little. I'll put it up again when the next Skirmish Line comes in. 

Spencers (and most CW arms) have such a heavy hammer fall that they will set off about any primer, even if it isn't seated properly. I shoot pistol primers in the 56-56 Ballard rifle and have never had a problem. The firing pin on that one is a bit fragile. The softer primers are easy on it. My experience with Spencers is that they will shoot well with rife primers, but I don't often shoot them past 150 yards or so, usually just 50 and 100.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Starline brass takes LR primers. I had some RMC cases that took pistol primers and I have some light breech face peening on my Armisport '65 carbine. Eventually I will just have a recoil plate machined into it. Pistol primers can crater a breech face, especially if it is softer steel.