Kirst 1860 Question

[Harley Starr]

Are Kirst 1860 converters available in .44 Colt?

[Mako]

That's partially what I'm trying to find out.  It seems with the "changes" (?) only Raven can accurately answer this.

Raven after you read this,  go look at my last post on the 1st Model Richards thread.

~Mako

[Bishop Creek]

I'd like to know too. Love to have a .44 conversion cylinder for my Colt Signature Series 1860.

[The Pathfinder]

Guys, are you asking about 44 Colt original or modern? A stock 1860 would use the original heel based bullet,a PITA I assure you, if you aren't as demented as I am. The modern incarnation will also require a barrel lining to get the diameter down from .450 to .429. If you don't line the barrel you could use hollow based bullets but that's the only way you get any accuracy. Good luck in your quest.

The Pathfinder (who has both types to play with)

[Mako]

Guys, are you asking about 44 Colt original or modern? A stock 1860 would use the original heel based bullet,a PITA I assure you, if you aren't as demented as I am. The modern incarnation will also require a barrel lining to get the diameter down from .450 to .429. If you don't line the barrel you could use hollow based bullets but that's the only way you get any accuracy. Good luck in your quest.

The Pathfinder (who has both types to play with)

Pathfinder,
I'm surprised that you would insinuate I don't know the difference between a heel based bullet and an inside the case bullet.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860%20Conversion/44Coltjpg.jpg

We did a whole thread on this recently:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35765.0.html

For me the question of inside or heel base bullets is irrelevant because the "rings" I am ultimately interested in if true to the original design have no bearing on the nature of the chambering or the bore.  If Kirst makes a conversion cylinder in the "modern" .44Colt chambering it is still of little concern to one wanting to make an "original cartridge" conversion because the chamber can easily be opened up to allow a heeled bullet to fit.

As far as reloading a heeled bullet being more work, or more difficult I don't see how that would be the case.  There are only two differences required for easy crimping and lubrication.

• You can put Bernie's modified die for crimping heel base bullets on even an XL- 650 just like any other Lee Rifle Factory Crimp Dies (.44WCF) and crimp away.  
• Then a simple trip to the lubrisizer, just as shown below.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1150.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_1152.jpg

Those images are from Hoofhearted's post on a thread two years ago.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24202.0.html

The only disadvantage I can think of would be that you couldn't buy lubricated bullets from some source such as Springfield Slim.  If you cast your own you have to lubricate then sometime, why not after they are loaded?  I end up having to clean my seating and crimping dies after loading BP lubed Big Lube  bullets as it is.  Heel based bullets might be easier in that aspect.

I have a pair of Uberti "Transition Models" (Type IIs) in .44 caliber now.  I also have a 1st Model ASM which is also historically and design inaccurate.  For years I thought the ideal "conversion" would be one that had a Ø.429 bore instead of the percussion Ø.45 bore.  Now I question that "accepted wisdom."

Thanks,
Mako

[Bishop Creek]

...I end up having to clean my seating and crimping dies after loading BP lubed Big Lube  bullets as it is.  Heel based bullets might be easier in that aspect....

MAKO. How do you go about cleaning your dies after loading Big Lube™ bullets?

[Mako]

Bishop,
I have them on Dillon tooling plates which allows me to pull them as a set.  I have a Hornady Black Powder measure with an auto drop die I move from tooling plate to tooling plate, I simply take it it off so i can can clean the dies.  I usually use brake cleaner or carb and choke cleaner in a spray can and wash out the seating die and the crimp die to remove any lubricant that has squeezed out during bullet seating.

I finish it with compressed air and a swab on a cleaning rod. Every so often I will disassemble the dies which requires me to reset the dies after I remount them so i don't do it if I can avoid it.

~Mako

[Bishop Creek]

OK, I get it. Thanks. I have a feeling that I am going to have to clean my Lee carbide dies soon.

[The Pathfinder]

Mako, I know you are well aware of the differences between the two, I only mentioned it to remind Ridgeway and Bishop of a potential problem that they might need to address if going with a conversion. Not everyone I've talked to seems to know there was the 1870 version of the cartridge at one time. I love to monitor your discussions with Raven, Fox Creek and Hoof Hearted and others on the different projects you all get up to. It helps to move along a lot of understanding of conversions and their ammunition with a great many people. I never meant to step on anyone's toes or ruffle any feathers. Keep up the good work and I guess I'll go back to just following the threads for now.

[Mako]

Pathfinder,
I was jesting with you, didn't you see the cheesy grin I added?

I realized what you were doing and added the pictures and links to basically do what you were doing in keeping the discussion topical.  I like you find most people are unaware that the original cartridge (well with the modern brass) is alive and well.  I made a conversion once in an '61 and went to great trouble to drill, ream and add a barrel liner (glued in).  I wish I onew then what I know now about the true nature or reloading heel based bullets.

Thanks to Bernie it is actually fairly easy.  I just want a new higher lube bullet than what he offers.  His designs are historically more accurate but as higher usage CAS shooters we have learned that our sports demands are different than a low round count gun fight.

~Mako

[Raven]

Kirst Konverters does not offer a .44Colt converter in our standard product line for liability reasons! We have no control over the operator loading .44Mags in the revolver.

This is one of the reasons we will not line .44 barrels. Besides that I personaly feel that there is not enough barrel or liner wall thickness to line .44 revolver barrels.

We do offer .44 Colt outside lubed Hand Made Historicaly Correct revolvers. My feeling is that anyone who wants an HC Revolver is going to want shoot HC Ammo.

Raven

[Mako]

Raven,
A .44 mag/.44Spl case physically can't fit in a converted percussion cylinder or one manufactured to the original diameter like you do.  The rim cannot fit.  It would be impossible to get it past the ratchet or to rotate the cylinder.  The only .44 cartridge capable of fitting is the .44Colt which has the intentionally designed small diameter rim.

See my explanation on this thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35765.0.html

~Mako

[Raven]

I understood the question to be about the Kirst 1860 which are of a larger diameter than the percussion cylinder.

There are two completely different situations here for me.
One is Historical recreations in which I will build just about anything within reason as long as you have the cash
and the other is the Kirst product line were we are bound by the 2 KISS principles - Keep it Simple and Keep it Safe

This also goes to the barrel lineing question. Since we will not line .44 barrels, any converter we would offer, would be for Outside Lubed bullets. Unfortunatly there is little demand. A few years ago we had .44 Rem cylinder for the 1858 Remington, we sold barely more than a dozen. Everyone wanted barrels lined so that they could shoot modern .44's
If we were to line barrels the problem for us is that someone will turn the rims down and load mags. We get asked about this all the time.

Another point for us is that even though something is possible it may not be practicle from an. economic and manufacturing point of veiw. This is especialy true in the calibers we can offer.

Raven

[The Pathfinder]

Sorry, Mako, didn"t get a lot of sleep last night and was out the door again way too early this morning for another 11 hour day. I cut my teeth on a John gren conversion of an 1860 (44 Colt heeled) and its still a hoot to shoot. Also have a Rapine conversion for a 58 Remmie (44 Colt heeled) but just haven't gotten around to figuring out that looong firing pin he used. Been having too much fun lately with my Richards II (44 Colt modern) and a nickled 51 conversion (38) I got from Taylors.

[Mako]

Hey Raven,
You're correct,  the question was about the Kirst cylinder.  He might have been asking because you told us that you had rings available for $350 for 1st Model  conversions.  I'm assuming  (which can be risky) that the Texican Ranger was asking if you made cylinders in .44 Colt which would only make sense for 6 shot cylinders, otherwise you could use .44 Russian/.44 Spl or .45 Colt with the 5 shot arrangement allowing the larger diameter rims.  

I have a question, if you are worried about someone turning the rims down on a .44 Mag case why aren't you worried about someone putting  XX  grains of Alliant 2400 in a .45 Colt with a 250 grain bullet and then using it in a Kirst cylinder?  It's a thousand times more likely someone will overload a .45 Colt than go to the trouble of reducing a .44Mag rim from Ø.514 to Ø.483.  Then they would still have to load it with a magnum smokeless load for it to be dangerous.  To take it to all extremes of stupidity, if they are stupid enough to turn the rims on a loaded round then there is nothing  you could do to stop them.  Those are the same folks that do things like load percussion pistols with Bullseye under a ball.

There isn't any way to protect yourself from "stupid"... You cannot "fool proof" anything and I mean anything  against a determined fool.  

I currently have 8 college interns I am managing and mentoring right now , they are working in teams of four on two separate Senior Design Projects at university and for my company.  One of my constant mantras is that you CANNOT "fool proof" any design.  You can only lead the user.  It is much like a bridle, I have ridden  horses that would fight a bit to the end if they wanted their head.  It required experience that they wouldn't get their way with some.  A bridle just makes it more likely they will go the direction you want because it is easier than the alternative.  I have literally pulled a stubborn head once during a flight back to the stalls to the point the horse fell.  There is no deterring a determined horse or a stupid or determined user.  You can only design it so that they will more likely follow the easier and more obvious choice.  I tell them "design it so that is easier to use it the correct way instead of the incorrect way."  In Lean manufacturing and lean design for manufacturing parlance this is called poka-yoke, which is the Japanese concept of "mistake proofing."  Once again a high minded but never attainable concept, but worth the effort in the design process.

I understand your concern for liability, I have been in the firearms industry.  

So back to Texican Ranger's original question, do you have .44 Colt cylinders to go with those twenty 1st model rings?  From the pictures you have provided us it appears they are newly manufactured cylinders and not converted percussion cylinders.   A ring with a gate alone for $350 sounds high when compared to a ring/gate and cylinder for an 1860 in the standard 5 shot Kirst Konverter for $290.  How much is a Ring/gate and cylinder combo for a 6 shot .44 Colt 1st Model  conversion?

I understand why you would have twenty 1st Model rings/gates because of the economies of scale, the same should be true with the appropriate .44 Colt cylinder.  Is there something we are missing in this discussion?  Is there a separation between Kirst and you that we are not privy to yet?

Regards,
Mako

[Raven]

Mako you give me a head ache!

You have mixed up half a dozen posts to the point it gets hard to deal with.

Walt Kirst and I own Kirst Konverter LLC. We have the Kirst line of cartridge converters and the Ravens Roost Custom line of historicaly correct firearms.

The 1st Model Richards Kit (ring, gate, and cylinder) is in .44 Colt and is historicly correct - This is a Ravens Roost Custom part
The 1860 Konverter is in .45 Colt/ Schofield - This is a Kirst Komverter product

For several reasons including liability and ease of manufacturing we offer Kirst Konversions in .38 Colt, .45 Colt and .45 Schofield. These discusions of what calibers should or could be available usualy revolve around calibers that are not commercialy viable in the quantities we would need to run to keep our product affordable

As for the Historicaly Correct firearms we will chamber them in any historicaly correct cartridge. So from my point of view there is no point in discussing what cartridges could work. I come at firearms building from an artists point of view and I really dont' fimd the numbers crunching all that interesting.

I need to go find the asperin  
Raven

[Harley Starr]

That's alot to process gentlemen. 

Just so there's no confusion, my intent was to learn if the Kirst 1860 cylinders could be made available in .44 Colt.

If such cylinders were available then I would ask if they could be used with off-the-shelf ammunition(Black Hills or Ultramax).

I don't have the ability to reload cartridges in my own home. 

More importantly, I am not a gunsmith.

Thank you. Your information is most appreciated.

[Raven]

Texican Ranger,

The short answer is No we don't offer the Kirst Konverter in .44
For the modern .44 to be accurate you would need to line the barrel and we do not feel that lining the .44 percussion barrel to the modern .44 cal, bore is safe.
Otherwise you would need to use healed bullets and there is just not enough demand for this.

Appreciate the intrest though
Raven

[Mako]

Mako you give me a head ache!

You have mixed up half a dozen posts to the point it gets hard to deal with.

Walt Kirst and I own Kirst Konverter LLC. We have the Kirst line of cartridge converters and the Ravens Roost Custom line of historicaly correct firearms.

The 1st Model Richards Kit (ring, gate, and cylinder) is in .44 Colt and is historicly correct - This is a Ravens Roost Custom part
The 1860 Konverter is in .45 Colt/ Schofield - This is a Kirst Komverter product

For several reasons including liability and ease of manufacturing we offer Kirst Konversions in .38 Colt, .45 Colt and .45 Schofield. These discusions of what calibers should or could be available usualy revolve around calibers that are not commercialy viable in the quantities we would need to run to keep our product affordable

As for the Historicaly Correct firearms we will chamber them in any historicaly correct cartridge. So from my point of view there is no point in discussing what cartridges could work. I come at firearms building from an artists point of view and I really dont' fimd the numbers crunching all that interesting.

I need to go find the asperin  
Raven

I take it I have been dismissed.

I understand...

[Harley Starr]

Texican Ranger,

The short answer is No we don't offer the Kirst Konverter in .44
For the modern .44 to be accurate you would need to line the barrel and we do not feel that lining the .44 percussion barrel to the modern .44 cal, bore is safe.
Otherwise you would need to use healed bullets and there is just not enough demand for this.

Appreciate the intrest though
Raven

Thank You Raven. I am always interested.