The First Winchester 66 or Improved Henry Rifle

[Henry4440]

There is a lot of discussion about the the first Winchester 66 or the Improved Henry Rifle.
I think it starts with the production time of the Henry Rifle.


The earliest known Win 66 is sn 12476.
After G.Madis' and W. Sword produced in 1866.
This carbine was initially marked with the serial number 12476, in the correct location on the inside of the lower tang. At some point, that number was lightly marked over with a series of "X" marks and a new number, 13024, was stamped forward of the old number A small assembly number "25" is also stamped on the lower tang and the inside of the left side plate. In addition to the peculiar serial numbers, the initials "L.D.N." were stamped on the inside of the upper tang. These initials belong to Louis Daniel Nimschke of New York City, the foremost firearms engraver of his day.





John E. Parsons wrote in his book:THE FIRST WINCHESTER, on page 59,  "...officers of the company ‑noted that the first two carbines of the new model were  sold to H.G. Litchfield of Omaha Nebraska, on August 31, 1867, for $34 each..."

Finn Burnett said that in Spring 1867 a ox-train was attack by Sioux. After chasing a warrior who dropped his gun they examing the weapon later. He said:.....it was found to be a Winchester,eleven shot, .44 calibre carbine,the first of its kind that any frontiersmen had ever seen.
Finn Burnett,Frontiersman by R.B.David, page 144.

Question: An eleven shot carbine?


Here is a pic of a 'Experimental Henry' with sn "13001-EXP"


Produced after G.Madis' in 1866, after W.Sword in 1867.

Henry Rifle sn 14994


Produced after G. Madis' in 1866, after W.Sword in 1867(?).


Henry Rifle sn 14256




The earliest Model '66 was manufactured at the same time the Henry was being phased out. Consequently, both rifles were manufactured concurrently. It is generally accepted by the collecting community that the first few Model '66's were serially numbered within the same range as the last few Henrys. Overlapping serials are seen on each side of the 13,000 to 14,000 serial ranges.
On page 102 of his book, Parsons concludes, "...it is the belief of the author that Model '66 serials began in Ike vicinity of 13,500, approximately where the Henrys left off." He went on to comment about lower serials. "A few specimens of the Model '66 have been reported with serial digits of three or four from 100 to 2611.  While no explanation for their separate numbering is known, the frame characteristics of such pieces are later than those in the 14,000 range, yet most have inside serials which would date them in 1868, before serial 20,000."  Parsons believed the low serials might have constituted a special order of about 3,000 guns, and that these guns were part of production in the year 1868. There was ample precedent for Parson's theory because there had been a few special foreign orders for several hundred Henry rifles, numbered within their own separate serial sequences.

In 1970, George Madis examined the records of Albert Tilton a long time employee of the Winchester Company. Madis examined these records, which dated back to 1867, at the Winchester Museum in New Haven Connecticut. On page 57 of his book, Madis stated that Tilton's records showed "...serial numbers assigned to the model 1866 were from 12,476 to 14,813 in the year 1866... " Thus, Madis narrowed the range of serials for early Model '66 production, to a specific serial range.

[Henry4440]

In 1864 O.Winchester sought government work elsewhere and the Briggs modification was applied to 500 rifles for the Bavarian King.

Bavarian Henry Rifle sn 471





It looks to me, that these contact starts with sn1 and ends with sn 500.

Question:
Why had this contract his own serial number?
Why they didn't start the Win.66 or at that time called the 'Improved Henry Rifle' as a new model with the serial number 1? They did it with the Winchster 73!

[Christopher Carson]

On page 102 of his book, Parsons concludes, "...it is the belief of the author that Model '66 serials began in Ike vicinity of 13,500, approximately where the Henrys left off." He went on to comment about lower serials. "A few specimens of the Model '66 have been reported with serial digits of three or four from 100 to 2611.  While no explanation for their separate numbering is known, the frame characteristics of such pieces are later than those in the 14,000 range, yet most have inside serials which would date them in 1868, before serial 20,000."  Parsons believed the low serials might have constituted a special order of about 3,000 guns, and that these guns were part of production in the year 1968. There was ample precedent for Parson's theory because there had been a few special foreign orders for several hundred Henry rifles, numbered within their own separate serial sequences.


It looks to me, that these contact starts with sn1 and ends with sn 500.

Question:
Why had this contract his own serial number?
Why they didn't start the Win.66 or at that time called the 'Improved Henry Rifle' as a new model with the serial number 1? They did it with the Winchster 73!

In your first post, you probably meant 1868 instead of 1968, yes?  

Speculation: Personalized serial number range to prove those pieces had been made specifically for His Highness, and weren't some "off the rack" schlock unfit for such a royal personage.

Speculation: Winchester saw the "Improved Henry" and even the Winchester 66 as an evolution, not a completely new design.  In the same vein, Winchester saw the changes to the '73 as being significant enough to warrant starting serial numbers over again.  (And/or Winchester wanted to use that as a marketing tool, giving low numbered rifles to people as part of the normal advertising campaign.)

Remember I said "speculation!"  

-Chris

[Henry4440]

In your first post, you probably meant 1868 instead of 1968, yes?  

Upps, changed.

[Fox Creek Kid]

L.H., I highly recommend the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Repeating-Arms-Company-Development/dp/0873497864/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297877779&sr=1-7

Houze shows photos of other Winchester models made prior to the '66 and sold to Mexico & Cuba as well as in Europe. Houze states that serial numbers began with #1 and I for one agree with him. He is the former curator of the Win. Museum & a noted authority on Winchesters and not some quack to be taken lightly IMO.

[Henry4440]

L.H., I highly recommend the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Repeating-Arms-Company-Development/dp/0873497864/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297877779&sr=1-7

Houze shows photos of other Winchester models made prior to the '66 and sold to Mexico & Cuba as well as in Europe. Houze states that serial numbers began with #1 and I for one agree with him. He is the former curator of the Win. Museum & a noted authority on Winchesters and not some quack to be taken lightly IMO.

Thanks for the recommend.Just made the order.
You wrote that:.. Houze states that serial numbers began with #1 and I for one agree with him.

Please explain that to me.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thanks for the recommend.Just made the order.
You wrote that:.. Houze states that serial numbers began with #1 and I for one agree with him.

Please explain that to me.

It's in the book.    I wouldn't want you to feel as if you wasted your money.    The answer is very complex but Houze covers it well. 

[Henry4440]

It's in the book.    I wouldn't want you to feel as if you wasted your money.    The answer is very complex but Houze covers it well. 

I have to wait 14-21 days before i get the book.

[Buck Stinson]

In 1972 when I was 23 years old, I bought an 1866 Winchester carbine from  a collector friend in Sandpoint, Idaho.  The serial # was 15334. This of course was a Henry marked gun which had no Winchester markings what-so-ever.  This gun was just about as mint as they get.  All metal surfaces were flawless, showing virtually now wear.  The wood was perfect as was the brass crescent rifle buttplate.  When I first opened the action, it too was as new and full of green verdigris.  The brass reciever and buttplate were glass smooth, with a beautiful dark mustard color.   The bore was absolutely perfect.  The only thing that bothered me about the gun was the fact that there wasn't a trace of blue on the barrel or tube and yet the barrel address was crisp and sharp.   The barrel and tube were a totally smooth, brown patina.  The hammer and lever had most of the dark brownish case color and even the rear sight was vivid bright blue.   About a month after I bought the gun for the huge sum of $800.00, I decided to remove the forend band screw and carefully slide the forend forward toward the muzzle.  As I did, I could immediately see why there wasn't a trace of blue on barrel or tube.  The gun had been shipped in the white, polished bright  like military Civil War muskets.   I had no history on the gun other than to say it had originally come from Montana.  I kept if for just over a year and sold it for $900.00 at a local gun show in Kalispell, Montana.  WOW!  I made $100.00.  Since then, I've not seen or heard of this gun.

[Henry4440]

I kept if for just over a year and sold it for $900.00 at a local gun show in Kalispell, Montana.  WOW!  I made $100.00.  Since then, I've not seen or heard of this gun.

Buck, what do you think is it worth today?

[Buck Stinson]

A gun like that would be difficult to evaluate, because there are so few of those early carbines to begin with.  Unless you see one in the same condition and serial range sell at a show or auction, you have nothing to go by in pricing.  The fact that it is just a standard grade gun makes it more valuable, simply because standard everyday guns like this one were sold and used as tools.  The survival rate was much lower than if it were an engraved special order gun that spent much of it's life being well cared for.  My best guess on todays market, even with gun values being down a little, I think it would bring between $45,000 and $55,000.  I have a very early 1873 carbine in near new condition, serial range 6XXX.  This gun came west in 1875 and spent most of it's life hanging above a fireplace on a ranch in Idaho.  The condition is spectacular and it still has the original cleaning rod in the butt.   This too, is an extremely desirable gun.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Early '66's in good condition, especially if a "flat gate", bring BIG bucks today.

[Montana Slim]

My guess $60K..the auction house might even cut their normal percentage on such a gun.
I've had the joy of handling & working the action on a number of rather valuable firearms..jus hours before they were sold to someone else.

Regards,
Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Am I seeing that correctly, that the hammer springs are secured under a 'hook' that is part of the frame, as opposed to screwed in place the way Uberti does it?

[Buck Stinson]

You are correct.  There isn't a mainspring screw on original 1866 model Winchesters.  The spring is held in place by a "hook" if you will, that is part of the forging on the inside of the lower tang.  There is a mainspring tension screw just ahead of the lever latch.   If the mainspring is weak, tightening this screw will give more force to the hammer strike. 

[Henry4440]

Howdy

Am I seeing that correctly, that the hammer springs are secured under a 'hook' that is part of the frame, as opposed to screwed in place the way Uberti does it?

Henry Rifle w/o sn and the Henry Rifle sn 20


Winchester 66



Winchester 73



Winchester 76

[Henry4440]

It's in the book.    I wouldn't want you to feel as if you wasted your money.    The answer is very complex but Houze covers it well.  

Got the book today.  
Had a quick look at it and can't wait to read it. Looks fantastic!!
Interesting is, that the Smith,Briggs,Winchester and the Swiss Contract sample arms all are serial numbered separately beginning with serial number 1

[Henry4440]

After reading the first 81 pages, i think Mr.Houze is right.
The Winchester 1866 starts with serial number 1.
As i wrote in my last post,the Smith,Briggs,Winchester and the Swiss Contract sample arms all are serial numbered separately beginning with serial number 1.

He wrote:......The final point taken, that being the scarcity of surviving examples of the model numbered below 13000, equally is not surpportable.The existence of specimens bearing four-digit serial numbers has been known for years, however they have been regarded as anomalies by those who advance the 1867 date of production commencement. The reason for this lies in the assumption that more examples would exist had they been produced. The probability, though, that the majority of the Model 1866's production was made for export ( as is shown in Davies' diary and elsewhere) provides an explanation for the low survival rate in this country, as well as abroad. Arms destined for foreign military service, especislly in areas of conflict during this period, had limited survival rates, and few have survived to be imported back into this country.
For example, of the 1,000 model 1866 carbines known to have been made for the government of Chile in 1866, only ONE is currently known to exist and NO example has been found of the 5,000 Model 1866s made for Japan in 1867.
On a far greater scale, it should be noted that exceedingly few of the 711,612 American firearms sent to France during 1870 and 1871 are known to survive today.

The most telling evidence that the Model 1866 was serial numbered from 1 on is provided by testimony given by Oliver F. Winchester himself in 1874. At that time, he testified that 140,000 firearms incorporating B.T.Henry's 1860 improvement to Smith & Wesson's 1854 patent had been made.This number cannot be reconciled with known production data unless the Model 1866 production began with serial number 1.

[Henry4440]

Question:
Why would i made in Experimental Henry sn '13001 EXP', when i have the perfect Win66.

Henry sn 13001 EXP


Win 66 sn 12476

[Fox Creek Kid]

I told you so.