Humidity and Shotgun Shells

[Noz]

A while back the question was raised about how high humidity affected plastic shotgun shells loaded with plastic wads.

I took a shell off of the top of the pile that I had loaded over the winter using twice fired STS Green hulls with 31 grs of Pyrodex (It was cheap) under a CB1100-12 wad with 1oz of shot. No sealant on a Winchester 209.

Shell loaded in a VersaMec with an 8pt star crimp.

I put said shell in a container of water covering the shell with approximately 2" of water.

16 days later, yesterday, I took it to the snow fields to see what would happen.

BOOM!

[Dick Dastardly]

There's primer sealer products out there.  The wad pretty much seals the hull, but the shot can get wet and corrode into one lump.  I like to put some wax on the overshot wad when I do my roll crimps if I'm going to experience wet weather.

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

...but the shot can get wet and corrode into one lump....

DD-DLoS

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... we were having a discussion awhile back about whether or not adding an non-slit teflon or mylar sleeves  from BPI would be copacetic for SASS shoots.  In our quest to maximize shot on target it seems there has been some "sneakiness" going on.

The whole idea was to minimize or even prevent a pattern from developing to assure the full load of shot hit the target.  Then one pard confessed he was using the non-slit hunting wads from BPI over fiber wads and not putting any slits in them.  I don't know if he was using the BP 12 wad or the new tungsten wads.  Then another guy said he had used standard compression post wads in brass shells and had added 100 MPH tape around the petals to prevent opening.

So we dug out the SASS rule book and it appears as long as you use #4 bird shot and don't ring the case to make it separate you can do whatever you want with a "wad."  One shooter said we used to be limited to #6 shot which I don't remember and I could only find my shooter's handbooks when they used to send them to you going back to 2002 which says #4.

It is funny how everyone thought they were being sneaky and it appears it doesn't violate any rules.  A couple of these guys are the type that used to swage the 12ga down to 20ga on the end.

So now I can add corroded lumps of shot to the discussion...Haaaaaaaa!  Yes "frangible" shotshell loads...

~Mako

[Mako]

Noz,
It's not clear, did you leave it submerged 16 days, or just dunk it for a short time and then waited 16 days before you got to shoot it?

If it was 16 days submerged I am duly impressed.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

I had some of those un-slit wads but the literature said to make at least two slits or adverse pressure may result. Of course, that was data for smokeless. I tried two & three slits. I always wanted to try bone dust mixed in with the shot as a form of 19th century Grex. Bone dust added to shot = disqualification in the old tournament days as it was considered an unfair advantage. I've even tried my own paper shot cups. They work.

[Noz]

Noz,
It's not clear, did you leave it submerged 16 days, or just dunk it for a short time and then waited 16 days before you got to shoot it?

If it was 16 days submerged I am duly impressed.

~Mako

16 days submerged.

[Noz]

I had some of those un-slit wads but the literature said to make at least two slits or adverse pressure may result. Of course, that was data for smokeless. I tried two & three slits. I always wanted to try bone dust mixed in with the shot as a form of 19th century Grex. Bone dust added to shot = disqualification in the old tournament days as it was considered an unfair advantage. I've even tried my own paper shot cups. They work.

I have a container of GREX. Didn't like the taste as it blew back in my face.

[Mako]

16 days submerged.

I mainly use STS (gold) hulls and either the Rem STS primers or Win 209.  I am going to have to try that test myself with both.  As I said I am really impressed with the seal of the primer if it would last 16 days underwater. The Claybusters wad doesn't surprise me as much.  I use the CB1138-12 and I find it conforms even better than the Win wad.  The STS hulls are nice on the inside and should seal well.

Even more impressive is that it was a twice fired hull which means the interior surface had been subjected to BP before.  Is that correct, or had they been shot twice with smokeless? 

I chunk my STS hulls after they begin to get heat damage (melted plastic) on the outside because they don't shuck as well.  I've had some last longer than others,  I was going to determine if it was because of the grain size when I get the chance.  I have literally used everything in them, Fg, FFg, Cowboy and FFFg.  Lately I have been using Skirmish Fg, but I was going to load some more with FFFg and mark each group and track how many loadings I could get.  I tend to load in batches.  I'll load 300-500 and use them for a half year or so, I am definitely interested in long term storage.

~Mako

[Noz]

I bought the hulls as "twice fired".  Some look like they have been fired with black, some don't. I, too, discard after I see some burn on the outside of the hull. I don't try to keep track of how many times I use a hull. Makes no difference as long as it will hold a primer and is unburned.

I really did not know what to expect but was pleasantly surprised. I had picked up a control; shell from the same box as the soaked shell. Could not tell the difference when fired.

I too have used Skirmish Fg and had no quarrel with it. Not a good choice for a night shoot as the fire from the unburned granules really trashes your night vision.

[Noz]

Going to a shoot today and the humidity tests continue.
I charged my Armys the 29th of December in anticipation of our club shoot on the 1st of January. Weather intervened as it did for the scheduled make up shoot on the 15th of January as it did for our regular February shoot on the 5th.
They are carrying FFg under a lubed wad. I think they will go bang with no problems.
I'll report.

[rickk]

Just to throw some sciencey stuff into this, water isn't quite the same as "humidity".

Water (liquid form) has surface tension and won't penetrate anywhere near as well as water in vapor form.

The classic humidity test is "85/85" ... 85% relative humidity and 85 degrees C.  If 10 days exposure to that won't kill something, it is pretty much good to go.

[Mako]

Just to throw some sciencey stuff into this, water isn't quite the same as "humidity".

Water (liquid form) has surface tension and won't penetrate anywhere near as well as water in vapor form.

The classic humidity test is "85/85" ... 85% relative humidity and 85 degrees C.  If 10 days exposure to that won't kill something, it is pretty much good to go.

Rickk,
You should re-evaluate your statement and how it will be construed.

Go back and read what  Noz said his conditions were, then post again whether submersion for 16 days or an 85/85 test is more rigorous.

Regards,
Mako

[rickk]

Mako,

85/85 is worse than water.

I have seen it penetrate microscopic voids in paralene coating and have the coating blow up like a water balloon.

I have seen it penetrate heavily epoxy encapsulated electronic assemblies and have the circuits fail, some times in only a day or so.

When the company I work for was dabbling in making 45 ACP shot shells for pilot survival kits, we did 10 day water submersion at 2 meters (about 3 psi) and thought everything was fine when the primer was sealed and the copper nose cap was pressed in place in the case mouth (just like a jacketed bullet). When we did Mil-Std-810 Humidity tests, things went bad quickly. We wound up sealing the copper nose cone as well with a "proprietary" sealant to pass the 810 humidity test. Note that I refer to it as "proprietary" because we figured out how to do it on our own at work and I signed one of them there agreements, not that the sealant was anything magical.

Now, 16 days of submersion on a shotgun shell (very difficult to seal) is pretty cool. It's just that "liquid water" is different than "humidity".

[Mako]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  Unless you are using a pressurized vessel such as an autoclave, submersion is worse.

Regards,
Mako

[Noz]

I wound up timing for the first stage. When it came time for me to shoot, I capped, went to the line and shot. Didn't even think about the age of the charges until I was reloading for the next stage. All went boom with no hesitation.  And a rarity, they all hit the targets.

[rickk]

Noz, It might be a cool and informational experiment to slice one open length wise and see what stopped the water. Was it the crimp, or the wad?

[Noz]

I would bet a lot more on the wad than the crimp. I could shake a little water out of the crimp area. I did weigh the soaked shell and the unsoaked control shell to see if any dangerous weight of water might have gotten into the shot charge. The wet one weighed 3 grains more than the dry one.

[Mako]

Noz,
That's cool, I didn't expect any less.

As I said in an earlier post I'm sure it was your seal between the the wad and the hull.  The Claybusters wads are nice and compliant. 

However in the improbable case it was your crimp then you are my new HERO!!! I will post your picture above the three shotshell presses in the shop  (Please provide the picture of your choice for adulation).  I have been in pursuit of the perfect crimp for 40 years.

Those 3 grains of water are a little bit less 0.2cc of water, the smallest Lee dipper you might have is 0.3cc, but it is still a significant amount.  It potentially is the full space left between your shot in the loaded shell. What was your shot size, I know you were using a CB1100-12 wad and 1oz of shot?   I can do a quick calculation and verify it with a quick volume of water/weight measurement.

Regards,
Mako

[Noz]

Be tough to calculate. I don't know if it was some homemade shot I bought or some reclaimed shot from another source.

http://s924.photobucket.com/albums/ad89/Noz_photo/?action=view&current=-1.jpg&evt=user_media_share


This will keep the mice away. I was presenting the purple armband of the Dooley Gang to Deja Vous.

After the introduction, I reached into my pants, grabbed the ribbon and said the immortal words: "Pardon me while I whip this out!"

[Mako]

Uhhhh, thanks....

Hmmmmmmm....

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/NozBraids.jpg

I may have spoken too soon.


Actually calculation isn't that difficult for an approximation.  Any idea at all on the size? 8, 7 1/2, 6s?  A simple volume of packed spheres in a column taken from the cylinder.

~Mako