Pyrodex/Ballistol (Long Post)

[Arcey]

This is nothing more, or less, than the documentation of the treatment of one particular revolver over a specific period of time.  Nothing in this post is intended to persuade, or dissuade, anyone from using any product mentioned.  It is, quite simply, a report from one shooter on the activities and conditions under which a particular test was conducted.  Nothing in this post is intended to support or denigrate the experiences, observations or opinions of others.

It is the end product of my need to know.  By profession, I am an investigator.  At least that's what my business cards say.  My pay checks say the same thing and they have for over twenty years, broken service notwithstanding.

I needed, or wanted, to know, because I have revolvers I care for very much.  Pieces I don't want ruined.  They are to be shot, not looked upon as museum pieces.  That said I don't want them damaged.  Being objective in my conclusions is the goal.  Often, subjectivity is unavoidable.  That must be admitted.

Being half-fast with a computer, this file was produced in Word, copied and pasted into this post format.  Hopefully it will be coherent on this board.

To business, there has been some talk recently about Pyrodex, fillers and corrosion.  Since I use Pyrodex, and fillers, I thought I'd find out for myself.

The revolver being subjected to this is an old Uberti Cattleman in .357 Magnum.  I bought it used, looked new, in the spring or summer of '98.  From May until late fall of 2000 it was used with Goex.  I can not estimate how many rounds. I was doing at least two shoots a month then and it was my primary revolver. I can not estimate how many rounds of smokeless powder have been through it either.  At that point, sometimes I used it and sometimes it stayed in the safe while I used others.  I will say if it falls completely apart the next time I drop the hammer it owes me nothing.  I can afford to sacrifice this revolver.

In this little adventure, two loads will be used, both Pyrodex RS.  One load with a filler (corn meal or grits), one without.  One uses SPG lubed bullets, one uses Crisco.  Both use fiber wads.  The SPG lubed bullets have seen the most use, the Crisco lubed loads are under development.

Throughout, Ballistol aerosol refers to Ballistol packaged as a self propelled spray.   Liquid or straight Ballistol refers to Ballistol packaged as a liquid in a container from which it may be poured.  Ballistol/water solution refers to a mixture of one part liquid Ballistol to five parts tap water.  That particular solution for use in this experiment is contained in, and dispensed from, a well rinsed, trigger-pump spray bottle originally containing ArmorAll.

Ed's Red is a bore solvent developed by one Ed Harris.  A Google search will return several sites describing Ed's Red and detailing Ed's back ground.  If one isn't familiar with this solvent, I'd suggest taking the time to read about it.  It's great stuff.

We start:

May 3rd – The revolver was shot at a Tuesday morning cowboy plinking session.  Following that outing, it was cleaned as I would normally clean a revolver after shooting with BP or a sub.  It was left wet with Ballistol after the cleaning and put in the safe.

May 7th – Following a six stage shoot, the cylinder was removed.  Each chamber, the inside of the frame and the bore was sprayed with Ballistol.  The excess was wiped over the external surfaces of the revolver.  With the cylinder replaced, it was shoved into a sweat sock and put in the back of the truck.   I decided to leave it there until the following Tuesday morning cowboy plinking session.

May 10th – The thing was taken out of the sweat sock.  The cylinder was removed and each chamber and the bore patched out.  Following this session, the revolver was sprayed down and put away as it was on the 7th.

May 14th – Not wanting to take the time to patch it out and wipe it off on the morning of a shoot, that task was taken care of on the 13th.  Since it was an in-shop clean up, the ends of the cylinder and in inside of the frame was brushed with a nylon tooth brush.  The base pin was lubed with Ballistol.

Following the shoot, six stages, the thing was sprayed and stored in the sock, in the truck.

May 17th – A Tuesday cowboy plinking session, the revolver is patched out and wiped down.  Other shooters were invited to inspect the revolver.  They detected no fouling or rust.  After the session, it's sprayed and put back where it was.

May 24th - Same situation and actions as last Tuesday.

May 25th – The revolver couldn't be left in the truck.  It was removed and secured, still in its sock. 

May 28th – The revolver, still in its sock, is put in the truck for a six stage shoot.  It's patched out, wiped down and offered for inspection at the range.  No fouling or corrosion.  Sprayed, socked and stuck in the truck after the shoot.

May 31st – Our regularly scheduled Tuesday morning plinking.  Following this firing, it was sprayed with a Ballistol-water solution rather than the aerosol that has, to this point, been used.

June 3rd - To save time tomorrow morning, the revolver is patched out in the shop.  The inside of the frame and ends of the cylinder were brushed down for the first time since May 14th.  There is no doubt the thing needs a more detailed cleaning.  Crud can be seen in tiny, difficult to reach places.  Bore, chambers, bushing, base pin – all as pretty as they ever were.

Pushing the patch thru the bore took a bit more effort than usual.  The aerosol stuff is oilier than the liquid Ballistol cut with water.

The external surfaces of the gun were wiped down at the range the following morning.  It's offered to others for inspection.   No rust.  The bore is bright, the chambers normal.

After the shooting was over it was sprayed with the Ballistol/water solution, wrapped in
an old tee shirt and put in the safe.

June 7th – No cowboy plinking session on this sad Tuesday, the owners of the land our range sits on have decided to begin their development.  We've been evicted.

June 10th – Removed the cylinder.  For giggles, the cylinder, base pin and bushing are separated, placed in a tin can and submersed in Ed's Red.  The rest of the revolver is put back in the safe.

June 26th – A rainy Sunday, drug it out. 

The hammer's sides are unfinished steel.  This revolver has always pierced primers.  Several things have been done to correct that, none have totally eliminated the problem.  There is rust on both sides of the hammer where it fits into the frame.  It'll buff off with a Dremel.  I should have brought the hammer to full cock and made sure all surfaces were well coated with Ballistol when I sprayed it down.

A tear down reveals a bit of rust on the hand.  As with the hammer, it'll buff off.

I attribute both to gases blowing back due to pierced primers and not thoroughly wetting the thing down with Ballistol prior to storage.  Leaving it sit for two weeks didn't help either.

Five patches cleaned the bore.  It felt a bit rough about an inch and a half from the forcing cone.  Not much, but noticeable.  It was scrubbed with a bore brush and Ed's Red.  I could still feel a slight roughness but I'm not sure if it's corrosion or crud.  Either way, it's slight.

The bolt, trigger, all springs, blued surfaces, virtually the rest of the revolver, is dirty but rust free.  Since there is no planned use of the thing until the third weekend of July, everything except the cylinder is placed in a can.  With the frame on the bottom of the can, muzzle up, it's all submersed in Ed's Red to a point just above the forcing cone.  The bore is wetted with same.

The cylinder was taken from its private Ed's Red bath.  It was dried and inspected.  It's ready to be put back in the revolver.  In the bottom of the can there's a gritty, black mess.  As the rest of the thing is in pieces, it went back in the bath.

June 29th – Spare time was had to mess with it.  A magnet was used to fish the hammer and the hand from their Ed's Red bath.  Each was gone after with a Dremel fitted with a wire brush.

The hammer will be forever stained.  It's smooth to the touch after the buffing but the discoloration is there.  The main spring roller spins freely.  Actually, I think it looks better for the purpose than it did shiny.  That's a subjective observation to be sure.  But, that matters, it's my revolver and if I like it, all the better. 

The hand is the same way.  Functionally, both are 100%.  Both were smeared with Hoppes No.9 gun grease and set aside.

The frame/barrel assembly was pulled from the bath. 

Several patches were used to dry the bore.  The last came out clean and dry. The roughness in the bore, referred to earlier, wasn't felt.  Using a dental mirror I can't see anything in the bore that wasn't there before this test began over a month and a few hundred rounds ago.

The bore was soaked with liquid Ballistol and the rest of the assembly was smeared with the same and set aside.

I found a casualty, the ejector rod.  It's pitted.  Note to me:  Run it out with the cylinder removed and make sure it's sprayed and wiped down.  My usual procedure with the fake Colts is to remove the ejector rod housing during a cleaning.

An inspection of the rod housing and the stainless ejector spring revealed no sign of rust.  The spring is absolutely spotless.

July 11th – Being kind of "on call" by the office, I decide to work on it.  The bore was first to get it.  It patched out nicely.  As closely as I can tell there's nothing in there that wasn't there before I resumed shooting BP or Pyrodex out of it some six months ago.

The revolver went back together without a hitch.  A close inspection, including using a magnifying glass, revealed no surface rust on the blued surfaces, inside or out, with the exception of a small pit on the barrel and just below that one, a matching pit on the rod housing.  This popped up five years ago.  I did see tiny specs of what I believe to be pits on the face of the recoil shield.  I don't think they were there before but they may have been, forming when the thing was left sit for two weeks.  It should be noted this revolver has never been subjected to such scrutiny.  I may be finding flaws I missed in the past.

The chambers have always been a little rough.  Now and again I polish all of mine with automotive rubbing compound.  That's about as aggressive as I like to get.  Before I put the cylinder back I gave it another going over.

The revolver is totally reassembled and appears to be functioning normally.  We'll find out Saturday, Good Lord willing.

July 16th – Too many people were hanging around waiting for the safety meeting to go letting a bunch of them sweep one another with it.  Took another Soot Shooter off to the berm and let him inspect it.  He has before – couldn't find anything wrong with it.

It is functioning normally.  Six stages, six clean stages, by the way (clean with everything – I'm a happy cowboy).  It should be noted, the loads today were Goex.  The revolver was sprayed, wrapped in an old tee shirt and put in the back of the truck.  Yes, another experiment is on the way.

July 17th – After cleaning the revolver this morning I feel this thing has been taken as far as I need to take it to satisfy my curiosity.   It also gives me peace of mind that what I've been doing works.  My other guns, ones I've been taking much better care of, are none the worse for the wear of Pyrodex/Ballistol since January.  Some have more "mileage" on them than the one I've intentionally neglected.

I'm putting it away for awhile.  There are other guns I want to play with over the next few planned shoots, this one won't be making the trips.  I'll take a look at it in a month or so to see if anything has changed.

[Camille Eonich]

For those of you, who like me, don't want to shoot BP because they don't want to have to run home right after the match and before you even get your boots off, take your guns all the way down and clean them.


Bumpity.

[Arcey]

Heh, heh.........

Used the old gal last Saturday.  She still shoots even with a half-busted bolt.  Sprayed down 'n wrapped in an old tee shirt right now.

..

[Camille Eonich]

Arcey I first found this post last year when I was getting ready to shoot BP in the Big Iron Showdown.  I was scared to death to run BP through my prized Turkey heads, uh Birds Heads, for fear that they would be permantly ruined by even getting close to the stuff.  Well needless to say that even though I waited until oh Tuesday or Wednesday after the match on Saturday, to clean my guns they were just fine.  I did give them a good spray down with Ballistol after shooting them and before storing them in the safe for the first part of the week though.

[Lucky Irish Tom]

My Rugers are stainless as is my 92 Rossi but my Mule eared double isn't.  Arcey got me into shooting the Holy Black and some of the subs.  Like him I have sprayed the guns down with Ballistol and wrapped them in something and cleaned them a few days later with no ill effect.  A few months ago I shot and was unable to clean them after the match or when I got home and had as a practice sprayed them with Ballistol and wrapped them.  I am a novice of only five or six years in this sport and only have shot Holy Black for a year.  Well due to some family emergencies and some personal health problems it was a substantial amount of time before those guns got a proper cleaning..  I was prepared for the worst, I sprayed them down again got out my brushes, patches swabs, bore snakes and the like.  When I finished cleaning them I shined lights down the bores and inspected everthing, needless to say I was pleasantly surprised.  There was no residue, no pitting, no build up, even on the shotgun which is not stainless.  Since I was using up a mixture of loads at that shoot there were straight Bp loads, BP loads cut with grits, Bp substitutes, and BP substitutes cut with grits.  I can't explain why they didn't suffer any ill effects and would not profess to say that everyone would have the same results, but it would tend to indicate that there may be a multitude of other factors that contribute to the problems others have experienced. 

The previous does not represent the opinions of the owners or sponsors of this board, Results are subject to change without notice and your mileage may vary. 

[TAkaho kid]

OK,

Lets get this straight. PYRODEX IS NOT BLACK POWDER. The corrosive effects of the percholates (sp) in the Pyrodex fouling is the cuprit. Even after a good wipedown and oiling corrosion can still occure over time. That is why I do not shoot Pyrodex anymore. Put the sparkling clean gun in the safe, pull it out in few months and the bore is pitted. Ballsitol was not made for Pyrodex or any other synthetic. It was made for real BP when BP was THE only powder.

Black powder fouling DOES absorb moisture very rapidly. The relative humidity and the trace amounts of Chlorites (poor powders have more) in the powder determine how fast it is absorbed. In a very dry low humidity location breaking the speed limit to get home to clean your gun before it rusts solid is not required. Thats simply another black powder myth. In fact its ths propensity to absorb moisture that makes water the best black powder cleaning solvent.

Bill Knight (the mad monk)  has a good article on this. After I get the little one to bed I will post it.

[Lars]

Given the diverse reports about the corrosivity of Pyrodex from experienced BP shooters I have to conclude that there must have been some real diversity in the chemical purity of the ingredients Hodgdon used to make Pyrodex over the years.

I personally never found Pyrodex to be nearly as corrosive to steels (even steels with low corrosion resistance from before 1900) in humid conditions as Goex, really more like Swiss. The steels in my Rugers, blued as well as stainless, seem to react much the same to Pyrodex and Swiss. Not much corrosion even four days later with Pyrodex used in Rugers and a Rossi in Arizona at Winter Range (four day match shot without cleaning the guns -- purely as a stunt -- I normally do not so abuse my guns). I started using Pyrodex shortly after it came out and again starting in the late 1990s -- extensive use both times, sometimes even in rainy weather.

Perchlorates are potent oxidizers and widely used for that purpose -- still, they too require adequate moisture for the chemical reaction to proceed very far.

Lars

[TAkaho kid]

As promised,

Here is the link to some of Bill Knights info. Lot of good stuff. Bill knight, aka the Mad Monk, is a consultant to the explosives industry with a particular interest in black powder.

http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/Bill%20Knight.htm

[Lars]

TAkaho kid,

Thanks for providing that article! I lost my copy when the computer it was on died suddenly.

Lars

[Arcey]

Like I wrote months ago, this isn't to wrinkle anyone's leather.  I'm not debating what may or not be in any powder or solvent.  Or, what this, that or the other thing is meant to clean and/or preserve.

The post was what it was and it was, an accurate account of what I did to that revolver, in note form, by date and activity.

My revolvers were not cleaned after last Saturday's (first Saturday) five stage shoot.  They were sprayed and wrapped.  When I got home, both cylinders were submerged in Ed's Red.  That's the condition they were in when Cammy bumped the thread earlier this week.  I decided to leave 'em alone until I got to the range this morning and clean them there, before the shooting started in front of anyone that wanted to watch.

There was a small problem.  I left my shooting glasses ('script) in duh beach and I was a hundred miles from 'em.  Shooting for me would have been a waste of ammo.  I decided just to help out, visit my pards and clean my stuff.

The revolver that was the subject of the post was first.  I patched it out and wiped it off.  Left it with the cylinder out and invited anyone wanting to look to inspect it.  One of the few that did has worked in a gunshop as long as I've known him - ten or eleven years - he found nothing wrong with it.  He commented how bright the bore was.   It should be after the thousands of rounds that have been thru it.  It was wiped down again after several people handled it, lubed, assembled and put away.

I grabbed a chair and set up as the unloading table supervisor.  Patched out and wiped down the second pistol there between shooters.  As the first, it was offered for inspection.  Two doing so are members of this board.  It was as clean and rust free as a spanked baby's hind-parts.

Loads of last week were Lyman 358091 wadcutters cast 3 to 1 wheel weights to plumber's lead.  Sized to .358 and lubed with SPG on a Lyman 450.  Cases were mixed headstamp .357 Magnums. 1cc of Goex 2f and a .060 Circle Fly fiber wad between the powder and the bullet. 

Frame and barrel assemby, bore - sprayed with 5 to 1 water Ballistol mixture before I left the range last Saturday.  Cylinders have been submersed in Ed's Red all week.

Both revolvers are spotless right now.  I have no doubt they still will be when I lay them on the loading table two weeks from today - if I remember my glasses.......................

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Well, it is possible to neutralize the corrosiveness within any of the BP subs.

the chemicals in Pyrodex are no different than anything else when it comes to use and cleaning.

1) moisture kills. period.
fire several rounds of IMR4198 in your 30-30 and let moisture creap in...all guns will take a beating.

2) cleaning with just plain soap-n-water is not good enough.
Ballistol is great for loosening up stuff and getting the crud out, but, don't stop there. Kroil is a good product. So is Hoppes #9.

3) There is no such thing as a "universal cleaner and lubricant"
Don't get cheap with your time...use a cleaner to clean and an oil or sheathing type device to protect the surfaces as needed.

4) A can of compressed air will go a long way.
If you clean with the "dunk" method, as many do, don't be affraid to use a small can of comrpessed air to get insides clean and cleared up.

5) There is moisture in your gun cabinet...get rid of it!!!
There are these things sold that remove moisture from a confined space. The "Golden Rod" is one of them...they serve a purpose.

I am sure there are more tips and tricks. I find that a good cleaning all the way down at least every other month of shooting makes a bid different to how things work as well as how they last.

[Lars]

Dakota,

I would like to echo some of your comments because they are so basic and seemingly so often ignored/forgotten.

1) Moisture is bad, bad, bad, no matter what the powder. Those of us that once hunted waterfowl extensively along the Texas Gulf coast literally hosed down our guns immediately after each hunt --- then dried them ASAP with hot air (generally from small hair dryers). They were then oiled carefully and completly inside with RemOil and exteriour metal recoated with Carnuaba wax. Today, you would never guess that those nice old doubles were used extensively in the salt marshes, often in the rain, sometimes with Dupont BP, Curtis & Harvy or Pyrodex.

2) Through cleaning with anything is not a real simple business -- excellent results require time, generally the time of the person doing the cleaning. There really are no short cuts.

3) There are lots of paths to nice clean guns, guns that will never show the effects of having been shot extensively with any BP, traditional or modern, el cheapo or premium. Some of us abhor Ballistol and Hoppes #9 and never use it.

I would add that the metal the gun is made of can make a big difference in the resistance to corrosion by any powder. I started shooting BP (Dupont) with an old Winchester Low Wall in 32-20 in the early 1950s. It already had a barrel heavily pitted near the chamber. Thanks to the pitting and the low corrossion resistance of the metal, cleaning it after shooting BP was a time-consuming chore. In contrast, the steels in my Rugers (both stainless and standard blued steel) and my Rossi have much higher corrossion resistance. They also have totally unpitted, very smooth bores. I can be sloppy with cleaning these guns, at least for a week or three, and see no effects of this neglect. My old Husqvarnas, etc. get cleaned immediately and throughly after each day's use, BP or nitro. The steels in those old guns span a half century of steel making development, from the late 1800s to WW2, and the corrossion resistance varies widely. Most of them were used extensively with early nitro loads with corrosive primers, then seldom cleaned, so, some have extensively pitted bores. Two have nearly pristine bores, whether because of little use or excellent cleaning is unknown to me.

I have always found that, with proper cleaning and caliber and loads, essentially no powder crud gets into the innards of well designed guns (Ruger revolvers, Winchester 92s, Marlin 94s, Winchester Low and High Walls, any double barrel, to name only the guns I have extensively personal experience with). My replica NMA Remingtons and  C&B Colt need total dissassembly to remove ALL the crud that gets down inside -- fortunately, that is easy with these guns.

Hot soapy water, properly used and followed absolutely immediately by total drying and relubing with an excellent gun oil has served many folks well for at least two centuries. Do a sloppy job, then expect your guns to suffer.

Lars

[Dick Dastardly]

Let it be known.

BALLISTOL dissolves traces of lead, copper, zinc, brass and tombac, which are used to make projectiles and jackets for them. Residues of these metals will remain in the bore of any firearms as a result of shooting jacketed or unjacketed lead projectiles. The use of  BALLISTOL makes scraping or brushing the bore unnecessary. Just pour or spray enough into the barrel and chamber, turn the firearm around several times to allow the liquid to reach all parts and let it "go to work". Later, the residues will then completely be cleaned out.

Due to its alkaline character BALLISTOL is ideal for cleaning and maintaining black powder firearms. BALLISTOL eliminates the need for brutal mechanical scrubbing and aggressive solvents.

Of course, you should also use BALLISTOL to treat your holsters, belts and carrying slings.

That's according to the Ballistol folks.  Now, there are some shooters that don't like Ballistol, but I suspect that's because the delicate chemical fragrence brings back memorys of bad lutefisk.

DD-DLoS

[Arcey]

So everyone will know, it should have been known, my approach to this is from a CAS perspective.  It's what works for that.  Nothing else.

It didn't start this way but the current aim is simple.  Unfortunately, it leads to a boring story.  I want people wanting to shoot Black Powder to do so without fear.

I was shooting several months ago with a young fellow at Black Creek.  Both of us shooting Goex.  We started talking cleaning.  The shooter told me he enjoyed shooting black powder but it was so much work he was thinking of going to smokeless.  We talked.  Turns out he was tearing his stuff down after every shoot, scrubbing everything and drying it carefully.  Inspecting each part, oiling it and reassembling it the next day.  He was, and maybe still is, doing all that because 'a fella I know has been doing it that way for fifty years 'n he says if I don't my guns will rust away'.  Hell, I wouldn't have done it in the first place if I thought that were true.

Anyway.  What I'm aiming to do is prove those sort of cleaning techniques aren't necessary.  No articles from others.  No 'tried and true' theories.  Just the documentation of what I'm doing.  Bothering the hell out of witnesses – 'Arcey, damnit! I don't wanna look at yer freakin' guns for the umpteenth time!  They're clean!  Let it go! – for independent confirmation.  I'll be more careful who I annoy but the guns will always be available for inspection wherever I am if it may be done safely, there is nothing to hide.   I'm not hard to find in SE Virginia and occasionally in NE North Carolina.  We shoot year round and my alias is on the license plate of the truck I drive, you'll know I'm there.

I wasn't going to post this at this point but yesterday I did some re-arranging in the safe.  I looked at three I haven't handled, much less shot, in months.  They're as right as they were when I put 'em away.

My plans are to continue this thread with reports of shooting whatever I decide to shoot and the cleaning details.  My hopes are someone who wants to shoot black powder or subs will read it and see they have little to fear of rust or tedious cleaning.

I won't be selling anything.  I won't be endorsing anything.  I will be telling it like it is.

See y'all real soon.

[Camille Eonich]

Arcey that's exactly what I got out of the original post and that's why I bumped it back up to the top.  I'm thinking about registering for Southeastern Regional Black Powder Championship and I wanted to review ths thread to remind me that I didn't have to go back to the hotel room in the middle of Mule Camp and spend the night cleaning my guns.

[Arcey]

And, you've seen 'em yerownself, darlin'.  Gonna be buggin' you as a witness 'fore long.

With any luck, we'll be talkin' about how they looked up close and personal next month this time.  While we're talkin' about how much fun we had at Roundup.......

..

[Camille Eonich]

Arcey I'll witness for you any time and I can't wait for Roundup!!!

[Cuts Crooked]

Arcey,

Would you mind if I made this a sticky? I think it belongs near the top so it can be found easily!

BTW, Concerning what people learn and want to pass on to others: I have long been of the opinion that The Darkside has many paths! Some may be better than others, but very few are flat out wrong! What works well for some, may not seem so good to others...and vice versa! So post about it and don't worry about whether someone thinks you are wrong or right...just do yer best!  Fer instance, I'm a "clean freak"!!! I can't stand to leave em dirty any longer than absolutely nessessary! Drives me nuts!!! But that's the way I wuz brought up! Doesn't mean Arcey's way is wrong, just means that that's the way he does things....and THAT's the way I do things.! (heck fer all I know we may both be doing it the hard way!!    )

[Arcey]

Cuts, mi amigo, you may do as you please with my blessings.

I believe you are correct, of course.  I'd use the term 'more than one way to skin a cat' but that would upset Cammy.  There are multiple methods.  All proven.  I've proven mine to my satisfaction.........

..

[Lucky Irish Tom]

Cuzzin Arcey,

I can attest to how good your firearms look with the ballistol upkeep, and don't worry about annoying folks you do that even when you're not proferring your firearms for inspection.   

Now I have a question, why do you have to keep bringing cats into discussions involving Cammie, when you know your views on them get her all riled up?