Stitching disappeared - Question:

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I have stitched my first holster and the stitching is barely visible except where I have back stitched.

I used artificial sinew, it was all I had, so I do not know the thickness but it is not really very thick.  The stitching does not look bad, you just barely see it. 

This makes me wonder if the thread is not thick enough or if I am pulling it too tight.  I know I really pulled each stitch.

How tight should a person pull the stitch?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

I have stitched my first holster and the stitching is barely visible except where I have back stitched.

I used artificial sinew, it was all I had, so I do not know the thickness but it is not really very thick.  The stitching does not look bad, you just barely see it. 

This makes me wonder if the thread is not thick enough or if I am pulling it too tight.  I know I really pulled each stitch.

How tight should a person pull the stitch?

      If you make your stitching grove tooooooo deep, this can happen, but pulling your thread toooooo tight can also do the same thing, I like to use pure Flax linen thread 5 stran or 7, I wax all my thread before sewing, linen thread will grab onto the leather better that any thing out there, and you just need to pull it snug, no need for rope burn, and then too, the thinner the thread the easier it is to cut into your leather, especially the artificial sinew, and thin nylon when pulled toooooo tight, senew is fine to use, but there is a learning cure. hope this helped

              tEN wOLVES   

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

   
      If you make your stitching grove tooooooo deep, this can happen, but pulling your thread toooooo tight can also do the same thing, I like to use pure Flax linen thread 5 stran or 7, I wax all my thread before sewing, linen thread will grab onto the leather better that any thing out there, and you just need to pull it snug, no need for rope burn, and then too, the thinner the thread the easier it is to cut into your leather, especially the artificial sinew, and thin nylon when pulled toooooo tight, senew is fine to use, but there is a learning cure. hope this helped

              tEN wOLVES   

Ten Wolves, that helps a lot.
After I posted I sat and analyzed some of the things I had done and they fall right in line with what you wrote.
1. I cut the groove deep
2. I pulled the thread really tight and yes my fingers knew it.
3. I had put an oil on the leather before stitching and it softened the leather
4. I used those large eye needles from Tandy and was putting both needles in the hole at the same time (needed large hole) Getting different needles and putting one through and then the other from now on.

All of the above came from enthusiasm and not wanting to wait until I could get the right tools, like a diamond awl instead of a round awl for punching the holes.  The reason why I have named this holster "comedy of Errors:.

Took a piece of scrap after posting this question and cut a single pass with the groover and then punched some holes and stitched with the same thread and it looks fine.

Mistakes do help speed the learning curve.  Again: Thanks for the insight and help.
TwoWalks

[marine-mp]

TwoWalks,
     TenWolves is "spot on" with his intel, as you found out.  If I may add a few other things which I have learned in my years of holster-making...and these are just my preferences.  There are so many folks here that have forgot more than I'll ever know.
                !) A small amount of neatsfoot or EVOO
                2) A lot of times the glue will hold without the thread, the sewing is sometimes just a "little somethin extra" to help.
                     I always do sew as it does looks good.
                3)  I use the overstitch wheel set on 5-6 stitches per inch.  It sounds like you MAY have put to many stitches to close
                      together, as they disappeared.
                4)  I use Tandy's waxed thread which is pretty heavy and does a good job.
                 5) Patience is a virtue......don't try to rush the sequences.  I've ruined more pieces trying to "hurry things along"!! 
                                           
                                                                                                          Semper-fi     Mike

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

TwoWalks,
     TenWolves is "spot on" with his intel, as you found out.  If I may add a few other things which I have learned in my years of holster-making...and these are just my preferences.  There are so many folks here that have forgot more than I'll ever know.
                !) A small amount of neatsfoot or EVOO
                2) A lot of times the glue will hold without the thread, the sewing is sometimes just a "little somethin extra" to help.
                     I always do sew as it does looks good.
                3)  I use the overstitch wheel set on 5-6 stitches per inch.  It sounds like you MAY have put to many stitches to close
                      together, as they disappeared.
                4)  I use Tandy's waxed thread which is pretty heavy and does a good job.
                 5) Patience is a virtue......don't try to rush the sequences.  I've ruined more pieces trying to "hurry things along"!! 
                                           
                                                                                                          Semper-fi     Mike

Marine, I think you are correct.  I used a number 6 over stitch wheel but by using a larger round awl, I would have closed the gap between the stitches. I will go to 5 stitches per inch on the next go around.

Tandy recommended and sent me some black thread along with the needles. It is thinner than the sinew I used but it would help go through a smaller hole with the needles.  My sinew when waxed needed a larger hole than the big eye needles from Tandy.

I originally planned on messing up the first few holsters (based on probable odds), so far so good.   

Between old shaky hands, bad eye sight and a tired old brain,  I am loving this.

TwoWalks

[bedbugbilly]

As you've seen, everybody has their prefrences and what works best for them as far as thread.  I use heavy linen that I beeswax sometimes but most of the time, I use artificial sinew - I just like it and it works for me.  When I read your post, my first question was going to be whether you are stitching while the leather is wet or dry - and by that, I was going to add "with water?".  Then I sit aw that you had oiled it some.  That may be part of your problem as the oil may have softened the leather too much and when you pull your stitches tight, it cut down in - or as Ten Wolves mentioned - your stitching groove may have been too deep as well?  I glue my seams when dry with contact cement and then stitch.  After I'm done, I "set" the stitches - sometimes by running the stitching wheel over them, other times by lightly tapping the stitching with a mallet while the back is supported on my granite block.  As a suggestion, try taking a couple of scraps of the leather you commonly use and do your stiching groove the way you normally do but then stitch the leather "dry".  Then try it oiled like you did on your holster and see if the stitches disappears - if it does, then you know it was the way your oiled it before stitching.  Also practice with the depth of your stitching groove.  It probably won't take but about an inch of stitching to see what works best.  I normally use 10 - 12 oz leather for holsters and for me, I found that making a initial stitching groove and then going over it one more time gives me a good depth to where my stitching ends up sitting flush with the surface when I "set" the stitching.  Good luck - you'll find what works best for you I'm sure.   

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

    That's something I left out, and Bedbugbilly has brought up, I never do my sewing on wet damp or oiled leather, like billy pointed out it makes your leather too soft, and the thread can easily cut through it, and also using to many stitches per inch can cause you to tear a stitch out, I've done this myself ( another reason to just snug your your stitches up instead of pulling them real tight, I always cement my seam line any way, the stitches are added strength ), I use to use a six to an inch stitch marker, I've gone to a five to and inch on holsters and any thing that has heavy leather involved, and always stitch on dry leather to avoid tear out, you can buy waxed linen thread from Tandy in natural brown and black, or you can do as I do, and dye my own thread and then wax it, one other thing I've tried nylon thread, I didn't like it as well as linen thread, it tends to loosed up on be, unlike linen which grabs and locks in, for hand sewing I think linen is the best, I've found that slick surfaced thread just doesn't hold and stay tight as well. IMHO


       tEN wOLVES

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Thanks everyone, this information is really helpful and my test this morning proves that the results came from three things: Tight stitch, oiled leather and 6 stitches instead of 5 per inch.

On the question of thread: I have been looking at the natural Barbour linen 5 cord thread.  What are your opinions on right or left hand twist?  Do you think it makes a difference when hand sewing with double needle?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Thanks everyone, this information is really helpful and my test this morning proves that the results came from three things: Tight stitch, oiled leather and 6 stitches instead of 5 per inch.


On the question of thread: I have been looking at the natural Barbour linen 5 cord thread.  What are your opinions on right or left hand twist?  Do you think it makes a difference when hand sewing with double needle?

I think the Barbour linen thread is the finest I've used yet, it doesn't make any difference which twist right or left when hand sewing, I like the five cord, and use harness needles to sew with.

                          tEN wOLVES 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I think the Barbour linen thread is the finest I've used yet, it doesn't make any difference which twist right or left when hand sewing, I like the five cord, and use harness needles to sew with.

                          tEN wOLVES 

Thanks TW, I will place an order for some Monday.

[Cliff Fendley]

I like the Barbour linen also, it's all I use on my period stuff. Where do you guys get the Barbour linen? I need to order some more soon. I think the last I got from Mid-Continent but it's been a long time.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Cliff

      I get my Flax Linen thread from Campbell Bosworth, here's the link, http://www.campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/6_71_73/products_id/1290  they have several other types of thread, but this is what I've been using.


             tEN wOLVES 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

TW,  what size harness needles you use with the 5 cord?

TwoWalks

[Skeeter Lewis]

Suppliers of Barbour's thread must be using old stock because Barbour's have gone out of production, as far as I can see.

Check this out...

http://www.lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume10/volume10-14.html

The article says that production of some thread will continue overseas but I don't know the upshot of that.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

TW,  what size harness needles you use with the 5 cord?

TwoWalks

   I use the medium and the large size the most, here is the link to where I get them.

    http://springfieldleather.com/store/product/16929/Needle%2CHarness%2C%2200%22Med%2C25pk/

              tEN wOLVES 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

   I use the medium and the large size the most, here is the link to where I get them.

    http://springfieldleather.com/store/product/16929/Needle%2CHarness%2C%2200%22Med%2C25pk/

              tEN wOLVES 

Thanks again TW, that should do it for my questions for a few days.   

[ChuckBurrows]

Suppliers of Barbour's thread must be using old stock because Barbour's have gone out of production, as far as I can see.

Check this out...

http://www.lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume10/volume10-14.html

The article says that production of some thread will continue overseas but I don't know the upshot of that.

Just the one mill closed - Barbour's is still being made here in the USA IIRC...........

I have not used the less expensive Hungarian threads due to reports from some folks whom I respect - they said it has more breakage than Barbour's and since I've used nothing but Barbours now for 50 years (except for tactical gear) I reckon I won't change.

While the initial cost is seemingly high in the long run it is much more cost effective - the small rolls sold by so many others in the long run cost about 5 times as much for the same yardage. For the hobbiest a roll of 5 cord will last a very long time. Exampl: As a full time pro it takes me maybe 5 years to use up a roll of 5 cord and I sew A LOT.........but then I also use 3 cord and 4 cord when appropriate or when doing exacting copies of originals that often were sewn at 8-12 SPI rather than the more common 5-6 SPI used today.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Chuck, I've taken your advice on many things pertaining to this craft, and the Barbour's Linen thread is just one of them, and I to haven't had my thread break since using it, and like I said earlier, for me It's the best thread I've seen or used so far, and like you I'll stay with it, it makes my sewing so much better and easier to do, plus I know what is sewed is strong and will hold up and last.


                     tEN wOLVES  

[Cliff Fendley]

I ordered some from Campbell a while back and they suggested their brand. I told them no I wanted the Barbour but what they sent me wasn't in the red box. It was in a plastic wrap and just said Campbell Bosworth 5 cord on it. I don't believe it is as good as my old Barbour thread. Maybe it was an honest mistake, I should have called them and questioned. Is the Barbour you guys have bought recently still come in the box like it used too?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Cliff, my box is red, I've been working out of it for a few years now, so I can't say, they still have the Barbours listed on their web site, guess you should give them a call, I forget who just bought some recently, but they didn't say it was any different than what was on the web, and liked it very much, let us know what you fine out, like Chuck said they still have a mill here in the US.


             tEN wOLVES