Loading Data for the 45-60 WCF

[RIDE-RED350R]

Hello gents, just spent a good while reading through this thread and there is alot of useful info here, a tip of my hat to all of you for that.

So last December I acquired a used but not abused Uberti '76 Centennial in 45-60. Like Two Horses above accuracy is leaving alot to be desired. My load is shortened Starline 45-70 brass, 26gr of AA5744 and a 300gr coated cast bullet from Chey-Cast. Either this rifle throws wicked curve balls, or it really doesn't like the Chey-Cast bullet. I am not looking to push this hard, 1300-1400fps with the 300gr is all I'm after.

Yesterday I went to the range with my chronograph and fired off about 20rds of this load. At 50yds I couldn't hit paper. I moved the target in to 25yds and STILL didn't hit paper. A couple shots searching for paper using Kentucky windage and elevation I found it was shooting a bit low, but a mile wide to the left. I drifted both the front and rear sights about as far as possible and managed to get it shooting roughly to the center at 25yds. Moved out to 50yds and while elevation was pretty even, I had a 10" horizontal string. Yeah, you could call it "minute of deer" but that would be only qualified at short range, like 50yds and in. I'd like to do better. I had two other rifles I was shooting yesterday and my chrony was malfunctioning, I believe sunlight was interfering with the sensors as I was getting some crazy readings about half the time, registering very low. Recoil and POI did not jive at all with readings. Anyway,nthe readings I got that I trusted to be accurate told me that my rounds were running 1325-1400fps which is right where I'm looking to be. That's the good part.

Tha bad part is the shotgun patterns it's throwing. I'm reluctant to condemn the AA5744 powder as it shoots incredibly accurate in both my 45-70 and 45-90 regardless of charge levels. This brings me to suspect first and foremost that my rifle just doesn't like the bullet I'm using. I have a pretty good stash of Hornady 325gr FTX I may try, but for what I'm doing with this '76 I would kind of prefer to stick with cast. I am very new to cast, this is the first and only firearm I have loaded cast for. I do not cast my own, the state I live in banned the use of lead wheelweights some time ago, so the cheap source of material being rare where I live is kind of an obstacle to the prospect of casting my own.

All of that said, the bottom line is this: can anyone recommend a 300gr commercial cast bullet that shoots well from their Uberti?

Thanks in advance for any incoming advice. 🙂

[King Medallion]

You can buy lots of cast ingots online, just pick what you want. If you have any, try IMR 4198, that works great in my 45/75.

[RIDE-RED350R]

Gents, I want to thank you all for taking the time to contribute to this thread.

I tried two different things with my '76 today to see if I could improve it's very dismal grouping.

First I tried using my original brass with a Hornady JHP seated to the cannelure for a COL of 2.237" on 1.810" brass. This is the brass I used with the Chey-Cast 300gr that didn't group for beans. Well, apparently the rifle likes the JHP better, at least on this length case.

Moving on, I made two batches of 5 rounds using the Hornady 300gr JHP and Chey-Cast 300gr but seating them to a COL of 2.290". To get this overall length and get the case mouth squarely in the cannelure of both bullets, I had to trim one batch to 1.840" for the Hornady and 1.875" for the Chey-Cast. Both of these combinations shot very well, grouping right around 1" at 25yds with the JHP and 50yds with the Chey-Cast. I fired the first two batches at short range to make sure I would at least hit paper and by jingles I surely did.

I used 26gr of AA5744 in all three batches and averaged 1370fps with both batches of JHP and averaged 1400fps with the Chey-Cast.

Overall I'm thrilled with this outcome as I was really hoping I could get this rifle to shoot well with the cast bullets.

AA5744 is proving to be an excellent powder all around. I also worked up some stout smokeless 45-90 loads pushing the 300gr Hornady JHP to and average 2330fps with a very low SD and ES while shooting incredibly accurate at all charge levels as I worked up.

[locolarry]

Hello gents, just spent a good while reading through this thread and there is alot of useful info here, a tip of my hat to all of you for that.

So last December I acquired a used but not abused Uberti '76 Centennial in 45-60. Like Two Horses above accuracy is leaving alot to be desired. My load is shortened Starline 45-70 brass, 26gr of AA5744 and a 300gr coated cast bullet from Chey-Cast. Either this rifle throws wicked curve balls, or it really doesn't like the Chey-Cast bullet. I am not looking to push this hard, 1300-1400fps with the 300gr is all I'm after.

Yesterday I went to the range with my chronograph and fired off about 20rds of this load. At 50yds I couldn't hit paper. I moved the target in to 25yds and STILL didn't hit paper. A couple shots searching for paper using Kentucky windage and elevation I found it was shooting a bit low, but a mile wide to the left. I drifted both the front and rear sights about as far as possible and managed to get it shooting roughly to the center at 25yds. Moved out to 50yds and while elevation was pretty even, I had a 10" horizontal string. Yeah, you could call it "minute of deer" but that would be only qualified at short range, like 50yds and in. I'd like to do better. I had two other rifles I was shooting yesterday and my chrony was malfunctioning, I believe sunlight was interfering with the sensors as I was getting some crazy readings about half the time, registering very low. Recoil and POI did not jive at all with readings. Anyway,nthe readings I got that I trusted to be accurate told me that my rounds were running 1325-1400fps which is right where I'm looking to be. That's the good part.

Tha bad part is the shotgun patterns it's throwing. I'm reluctant to condemn the AA5744 powder as it shoots incredibly accurate in both my 45-70 and 45-90 regardless of charge levels. This brings me to suspect first and foremost that my rifle just doesn't like the bullet I'm using. I have a pretty good stash of Hornady 325gr FTX I may try, but for what I'm doing with this '76 I would kind of prefer to stick with cast. I am very new to cast, this is the first and only firearm I have loaded cast for. I do not cast my own, the state I live in banned the use of lead wheelweights some time ago, so the cheap source of material being rare where I live is kind of an obstacle to the prospect of casting my own.

All of that said, the bottom line is this: can anyone recommend a 300gr commercial cast bullet that shoots well from their Uberti?

Thanks in advance for any incoming advice. 🙂

Its not a 300 grain bullet but I finally got out with my Uberti Tom Horn(without the ugly peep sight that was DEFECTIVE from CIMARRON) for the first time using 5744 and 325 gr .358 dia.bullet from buffalo arms #45325FNU worked well for me, very happy with the results. The bad news is it's out of stock right now. I see they have a 300gr .459 Dia from rcbs mold maybe someone could chime in on any experience with it? Tempted to order some to try out, had such good results with the 325 hate to start new.

[yahoody]

Anyone have some 45-60 brass..head stamp of no concern, that the'd like to sellout out right for top $  or trade other brass or primers for?

I have large rifle primers if you are in need.

[Two Horses]

Quality Cartridge is going to be making a run of .45-60 here soon. Rocky Mountain cartridge can make it for you, but its pricey!

You can always trim down .45-70 case to 1.89" and the run them through the .45-60 sizing die.

Dwayne

[yahoody]

Thanks for the  leads on new brass.

I have plenty of new 45-70 brass.  But my brass trimmer, even with a new carbide cutter, isn't currently up to it however.

[Trailrider]

Have you slugged the bore? Might be the problem if there is a real mismatch in bullet/groove diameters.

[Oregon Bill]

Yet another caballero here tipping his hat to all you fine folks who contributed your time and hard work to this wonderful thread.
My used but ANIB Uberti with RCBS dies and some other goodies will be here next week, and boy am I looking forward to it.
Checking my pitiful powder stash, I see H4895, H4198 and a little bit of Varget. No 5744, though, a longtime favorite.
Bullets and a mold will be the first priority.

[King Medallion]

My New RCBS seat is very tight the 1/4" before the crimp, is this normal? It's so tight is shines the brass.

[matt45]

I wouldn't think it would hurt anything, unless it is shaving the bullet or crumpling the brass.

[Black River Smith]

King,

To answer your question directly - No.  The RCBS dies I have do not scrape the brass during initial sizing or seating.  My Lee set did scrape when sizing that is why I went to the RCBS.

1. Did you size the brass after cutting it to length?  I do not see the shoulder that the RCBS dies put in the brass.  This is not a straight case cartridge. Original Winchester brass is a slight bottle neck.  The originals used a 0.456" bullet (don't know what Uberti bores measure).  I have an original Winchester 45-60 bullet mold that drops a perfect bullet.  My Chapparal likes the 0.456 bullet but the chamber is cut a little full.  Brass comes out straight.

2. Did you expand that brass with the RCBS 45-60 expander in the set or something different?

3. What size bullet are you planning to use in this Uberti rifle?  I know some people have used larger sized bullets.

Sorry, this is all I can think of, for what may have caused the scraping.

[King Medallion]

The brass is once fired resized and primed 45/70 Starline. I had resized in my Lyman 45/70 die. Chopped it, chamfered in and out, then used the new rcbs belling die. I have an assortment of bullets to try, some are .458, others are .459. Some  are 300 gr, some are 350 gr, might even try some 400 gr. I have a wide selection of powders too.

[Black River Smith]

The brass is once fired resized and primed 45/70 Starline. I had resized in my Lyman 45/70 die. Chopped it, chamfered in and out, then used the new rcbs belling die.

King, the only comment I would make is -- you have made 45-75 and 50-95 from other forms of different caliber brass.  I am certain you had to size them in the proper caliber sizing die to get the correct final shaping (or fireformed them??).  The same is true with 45-70 to 45-60 or 40-60.  After cutting, I chamfer, then size, then trim to final length, then chamfer again, then size again.  You really need to size them in the 45-60 sizer.  Then bell.  This will give you the correct shape the seater/crimp die is expecting.

Try one piece doing 'something like above' and see if you get a different result.  If not, then you may be correct about the tight seater.

In my opinion 'No' die should scrape our brass casings, like you showed above, unless they were previously damaged or mis-manufactured.  If I see any scraping on my brass, I am not happy.  I immediately think of polishing out those dies.  I have bought several RCBS used sets and have had to polish the sizer die because people have mis-used them.

If the same thing happens again call RCBS about a replacement.  Just not right.

PS: Your bullet weights are in the range.  Your diameter will depend on your seater and whether they fit in rifle chamber and your rifle bore.

[King Medallion]

OK, resized them all in the 45/60 sizing die, the belled them. I can definitely see the difference. I actually put 45/70 seat die on the turret, screwed it all the way down and it's perfect for the MBC 300 gr Coated bullet. Then ran the shell into the 45/60 seat die to be crimped. Still tight, but no marks like before. There is no contact in the 45/70 seating die at all. Trying to order a FCD from Lee also.

[King Medallion]

Ordered the FCD, have to buy them off ebay now. Have to send Lee a resized casing and bullet. They will not be returned. 8 week turnaround.

[King Medallion]

This is what my brass looks like after fresh resize and belling with the new RCBS dies. Crimps nice, but very tight in there, never felt that in any seat die before.

[King Medallion]

Got the Lee FCD monday, that was fast, only a week. I bet they had some made already. Getting the runaround from RCBS on the seat die. They think I'm over crimping. I think after 40 years of reloading I know how to set up a seat die.

[Black River Smith]

Do those polish rub spot correspond to the location of the base and the shoulder area between the grease grooves of you bullet?  Then what is the diameter of your bullet you are showing in the picture?

Measure the diameter of the neck area (below the crimp) in your RCBS seat/crimp die.  Measure the diameter of the polished area of the finished bullet.  If they are nearly the same diameter, then maybe your bullet is too large for the casing and dies.  That is what I meant in an earlier post that 'your die will determine the maximum size of the bullet diameter'.

Another idea -- question how long is your COL?  Is it greater than 1.89"?  Just trying to out-guess the problem.

[King Medallion]

The bullet in the picture is a Missouri Bullet Co. #2 Buffalo, and the Accurate mold bullets I used are both .459 in diameter, and feed the rifle with no issue. The MBC OAL is 2.27 and the Accurate bullet AOL is 2.26. I have no tool to measure inside a die.