Loading Data for the 45-60 WCF

[Mdee]

Anyone have trail boss loading data for 45-60 WCF with 350 grain RNFP? To be used in Uberti 1876

[treebeard]

Got a quick question for you good folks. With a Uberti replica '76, there's no issue with using hard lead bullets, right? I know with originals, you want to keep it soft, but when I get my '76, I was planning on using the Missouri Bullet Co.'s 300 grain RNFPs, which have a brittle of 18. Figured I'd ask before I spent my money.

It is worth trying different bullet company?s as they cast different brinell hardness numbers. for instance I looked at Oregon Trail Bullets and they advertise 15 brinell as compared to 18 for Missouri.

[Gabriel Law]

Mdee:  I've shot a lot of Trail boss out of my Uberti 1876.  I shoot 14 gr. TB with both the 300 and 350 gr. bullets, but get better accuracy with the 300 gr. and that powder.  My smaller slugfs come from a BACO 459300 mould, and the larger from a Lyman 457122 HP.
The 350 gr. bullets go into a little over 2" at 50 yds (rest), whereas the 300's will chew a ragged hole at the same range.  My rifle has a MVA midrange Vernier rear sight and a MVA globe front.

[nohorse]

Hello everyone.  I have been wanting to get a Uberti 1876 for a couple years.  I finally got one the other day, a Crossfire Carbine in .45-60.  I have been studying all the loading data in this thread and wanted to thank everyone for getting me on the right track.  I went to the range today with 6 rounds, that was all the brass I could make in 1 day due to my arthritis.  If  I Shortened more cases my hands would have been on fire, I will make more a few at a time.  I am also waiting on a die set, so now I am using a 45-70 die set...so no crimp on the rounds.  I have also emailed Lee about a factory crimp die.  I also can not find any 300 or 325 grain bullets, so I have to use the 405 powder coated bullets from Acme that I use in my 45-70's.  I did domy homework and detrmined that I have to shorten my brass to 1.845 in order to crimp my 405's and have an over all length of 2.290.  I made the 6 rounds (withoutcrimps)and while test feeding them through the action one round had the bullet set back to 2.23, I think that was the flier on my target.  The other 5 were pretty much in one gob at 50 yards, about 6" high.  No pressure signs with 23.0 5744, cases would practically fall out of the chamber and no soot on the brass.  There was some unburned powder so I will experiment with fillers and some Varget also.  Thanks again to evryone for all your help.

[nohorse]

If anyone is still following this thread, I have some more data.  i tried Varget with my powder coated 405 bullets.  I modified my Lee factory crimp die and used that to crimp all loads. Uberti 22" Carbine .45-60, 2.285 over all, case 1.845. No fillers. CCI 200 primers, temp 42 degreesF

Varget 36.0 - very accurate, 32 fps ex spread, 1172 fps average
          37.0 - wild accuracy, 100 fps ex spread, 1238 avg, case head expansion .5035
All Varget loads had a ton of unburned powder.  I discontinued using Varget and switched to H4895

H4895 36.0 - ok accuracy, 1220 avg/ 34 ex spread, .503 che
          37.0 - better accuracy, 1267/33, .503 che
          38.0 - very accurate, 1294/30, .5035 che
Much less, almost none, unburned powder.  Case head expansion with 38.0 was only .5035, very mild.  I will try 39.0 to get to my target velocity
of 1320-1340 with nice accuracy.

5744 powder no fillers
         23.0 - 1242/7 very accurate, .5035 case head expansion, moderate powder residue almost none if elevate muzzle before each shot
         24.0 - 1292/25 accurate, .504 che, less powder residue
5744 was extremely accurate with 23.0, as charges went up accuracy went down, adding 1/4 sheet of toilet paper as a filler would tighten up extreme spreads and reduce powder residue.  Accuracy would improve, but it would be the same if I elevated muzzle before each shot to settle powder without filler.

5744 with Remington 405 jacketed bullets crimped over driving band for 2.280 over all length
24.0 - 1210/7 very accurate, .5035 che
Going to try 25.0 witłh this load

[Slamfire]

Hey nohorse , yup ,still following now that I have a 45-60 ( Chappie ,re-build ). Went to the range with my new to me , Caldwell chrono., and " 5 " rds. here are my results. Don't have a APP thing'y ,, yet , cloudy w/ 15-20+ mph wind .

      powder H4198 @ 26grs.
     457122HP @ .342 grs. + - ( cast @ 20-1 ) no leading in barrel, ever !.
     Case,,,,,,,,,,,, 1.880
     OAL ,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.280             
     1- 1298 fps.
     2- 1329 fps.
     3-1297 fps.
     4- 1268 fps.
     5- 1178 fps. 
                         YMMV,, these loads are for my rifle , use at your own risk , etc. ,etc.

      coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

                                 

[Slamfire]

 Just a quick up-date !!

Testing w/ IMR-3031, I used 3 different case length , " BUT " ,, low ES's ,, don't seem to = most accurate ??

  All rds. crimped to the front edge of driving band ,, Lyman , 457122 HP , sized .458 ( home lube ) @ .343grs.
  Imr-3031  @ 31grs.+ .4 Dacron filler ,,, (1) 1330fps. (2) 1333 fps. (3) 1330fps. = a spread of 3 fps. ( not chisel-ed in stone ).

Have loaded 10 more rds. the same ,,, will report when tested .( we now return to your regular program )

  coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Mdee]

Loads from my 45-60 (Uberti 76) using trail boss. Just chrono'd at steel so couldn't really determine the accuracy:
Powder: Trail Boss
Projectile: 350gr RNFP lead
OAL: 2.25
10gr  Av: 964 fps   es: 26 fps sd: 8 fps
11gr  Av: 1025 fps   es: 8 fps sd: 3 fps
12gr  Av: 1085 fps   es: 9 fps sd: 4 fps
13gr  Av: 1108 fps   es: 36 fps sd: 15 fps
14gr  Av: 1121 fps   es: 64 fps sd: 24 fps

these loads are for my rifle , use at your own risk , etc.

[QueensHorseman]

Thanks to each of you for continuing to add to this thread.  I'm deciding what mold to buy for my '76 Uberti carbine and would prefer one bullet that would work with both black powder and regular powders.  Any modern made suggestions in the 300ish grain weight, good metplat for hunting, carry sufficient lube for black and have a properly placed crimp groove?

[Two Horses]

Quick intro to the group

After an 18 month wait, I am the proud owner of an 1876 Uberti Centennial rifle in .45-60. A few things you notice right away is this this rifle will chamber cartridges larger than the standard 2.25 OAL. In fact it chambered Steinel ammo which was 2.295". The rifle has a ridiculously heavy trigger pull of 10 pounds. After disassembling and cleaning the 76's internals (along with some polishing) we got it down to 9 pounds (Still way too heavy) The good news is it has no issue chambering cut down .45-70 brass with its thicker rim. In fact it fed just about everything we put in it. The folks at Uberti have also given the 28" barrel a 1:20 twist rate (Forget what their website says about it being 1:40 . . . it's wrong).

Load development with this rifle was a bit of a challenge. Thankfully I started out with two boxes of Steinel .45-60 factory ammo with a 300 Grain coated RNFP bullet, 28.5 grains of powder and 1.89" brass to test with. This factory ammunition was spectacularly accurate, however at $4 a round it simply wasn't feasible. It did however set the stage for developing handholds from cut down .45-70 brass.

I had read the work on .45-60 reloading by Brian Pearce and decided to start with the Lyman 457191 292 grain bullet, a brass case length of 1.81" and various charges of Accurate 5744 powder. Sadly the bullets were all fliers and not one of them would stabilize despite cutting the cases to 1.81 and crimping on the top lube groove. I don't think we ever got a decent crimp doing this way and worse the bullet failed to stabilize. In fact it was so bad that at 100 yards we could not hit a 6' target! Moving back to 25 yards the closest shot to the bullseye was 17" in every direction with no obvious grouping at any velocity between 1200 and 1400 FPS.

I went back and chambered one round of the Steinel ammo (1390 FPS) and put a hole in the bullseye. At this point the question of why the bullet wouldn't stabilize ended up with a call to Steinel. They were obviously not willing to to give away any info. But I had already taken apart their ammo, mic'd everything and examined the powder. A comparison of the two loads was narrowed down by using empty Steinel brass, 27 grains of 5744 and identical velocities. The only difference was the bullet. The Steinel was highly accurate and the Lyman was nothing but fliers. An examination of the two bullets showed the following difference. The Steinel was 300 Grain RNFP (It looks very much like the RCBS 45-300) was coated and contained a single small lube groove with no lube. The Lyman 457191 was a RNFP lead cast with three large lube grooves full of lube. We surmised as to why the 457191 would not stabilize. Our best guess was there was not sufficient base on the bullet with the three huge lube grooves. Or perhaps the base of the bullet was either being torn off or compressed into the groove above it. We did not recover the bullet so it's just a guess. But the results on paper were obvious. Nothing close to the target center and oblong holes in the target where the bullet passed through partially sideways. I decided to slug the barrel and found it was .457 in diameter. We then did a twist rate testing and found it was 1:20.

I fed the data into a gyroscopic bullet stabilization calculator that indicated at the given twist rate it would be over stabilized. Which caused more questions than answers. It turned out Uberti's twist rate for the .45-60 on their website was wrong.

We abandoned the Lyman .458 292 Grain RNFP bullet and began testing with Buffalo Arms 300 Grain .459 RNFP and a 325 Grain .460 Gas Check bullet made by a local. Both were had excellent crimp grooves and both worked well with AA5744 and IMR4198 powder. But the 325 Gas Check .460 bullet with 27 grains of 5744 produced the tightest groups. We tested this combination, using charges from 24 to 28 grains. My Centennial seemed to like the 27 grains of 5744 with the 325 GC bullet the best. It produced a nice tight group that went through the chronograph at 1380 FPS, within 10 FPS of the Steinel factory ammunition.

I happened to have some Hornady FTX bullets on the bench so I cut down some .45-70 cases to 1.785 and using 27 grains of 5744, I seated the FTX. This combination crimps well, slides right into the magazine tube, rides up the elevator and goes right into the chamber just as slick as can be. It also produced good groups.

With a good load in hand, I put long range soul sights on it and will be working on seeing just how far this 76 will throw a hunk of lead. Its been a fun a project, still lots to do yet. But I am looking forward to it!

[Black River Smith]

Two Horses,

Just to clarify something about your text.  The standard OCL of most of the 1876 cartridges is 1.89" max.  I have cut my to 1.91" because of noticed 'fire-sizing' in my chamber.  The OAL of all the 1876 loaded cartridges is 2.25".  If you used Wikipedia as you guide it is wrong at the listing of 2.15".  I used the Lyman 49th ED section of 1876 loading as my reference.  I do have other cartridge conversion books that cooberate the 2.25" length.

Hope this helps you in the future.

Congrats on the new rifle and thanks for the very detailed summary of you experience.   I also have a 45/60 but mine does like the Lyman 457191 bullet and original Winchester molded bullets.

[Two Horses]

You are correct. 2.25. This is why you don't try to write late at night!

[Slamfire]

Been working w/ IMR 3031 & 457191 @ .318gns, in my 45-60 .
I mostly shoot 5 shot groups.
               
           IMR-3031,,,,,, Primer ,,,,,457191 ,,,,,case OAL,,,,,OAL .
  5rds.,,,,,,31gns ,,,,,,,FED LR,,,,,,.318gns.,,,,,1.870 ,,,,,,,2.270 ,,,HI- 1359 fps. ,,,LOW- 1334 fps. = 25fps.
  5rds.,,,,,30.5gns.,,,,,FED LR ,,,,,,.318gns. ,,,,1.875 ,,,,,,2.270 ,,,HI- 1314fps. ,,,,LOW- 1293 fps. =21fps.
  5rds.,,,,,30.5 w/ .4 Dacron ,,Fed LR .318gns.,1.870 ,,,,,2.270 ,, HI-1299 fps. ,,,,Low - 1283 fps. =16fps.
   I am shooting at 50yds. @ 2 1/2" red diamonds ( dang hard to see ) , getting 2 n1 holes & some 3 holes under a quarter , just can't get them all together ( lol ).

     These loads are for my rifle YMMV,, be safe.
   Maybe need more coffee ,,, Hootmix.

   

[locolarry]

We abandoned the Lyman .458 292 Grain RNFP bullet and began testing with Buffalo Arms 300 Grain .459 RNFP and a 325 Grain .460 Gas Check bullet made by a local. Both were had excellent crimp grooves and both worked well with AA5744 and IMR4198 powder. But the 325 Gas Check .460 bullet with 27 grains of 5744 produced the tightest groups. We tested this combination, using charges from 24 to 28 grains. My Centennial seemed to like the 27 grains of 5744 with the 325 GC bullet the best. It produced a nice tight group that went through the chronograph at 1380 FPS, within 10 FPS of the Steinel factory ammunition.

I happened to have some Hornady FTX bullets on the bench so I cut down some .45-70 cases to 1.785 and using 27 grains of 5744, I seated the FTX. This combination crimps well, slides right into the magazine tube, rides up the elevator and goes right into the chamber just as slick as can be. It also produced good groups.

With a good load in hand, I put long range soul sights on it and will be working on seeing just how far this 76 will throw a hunk of lead. Its been a fun a project, still lots to do yet. But I am looking forward to it!

I know its been 5 months since anyone posted on this but would like to ask Two Horses if there is anymore information you could add to the data using the Hornady {325 grain?}FTX bullets. Thanks

[Two Horses]

Well, I am not sure exactly what you want to know. I used cut down .45-70 brass to 1.785 and installed a Federal large rifle primer. The powder charge was 27 grains of Accurate 5744 and the FTX bullet was seated using a Redding .45-60 die set. The bullet was seated and crimped at the base of the cannelure. The round performs well and is quite accurate at 100 yards. We were having some issue with pulling rounds off center due to a 10 pound trigger pull. I complained to a buddy about this who is a custom gun builder and he offers to take a look at it. So it has been at his shop getting cleaned up inside, the internals polished and the trigger break set to 4 pounds. Just got the rifle back and so I haven't had a chance to get out to the range and see what velocities and distances we get out of this round.

The miserable cold, snowy weather doesn't help!

If there is something specific you would like to know, please feel free to ask.

Dwayne

[locolarry]

Two horses wondering if you had used other powders with the FTX and what the accuracy/velocity results were and if you had tried the load of 27 gr. 5744 you listed at longer ranges and results of that. I plan to load some of the FTX when I get my 45-70 dies back from the machine shop and pick up my rifle on Saturday. Thanks a lot for the reply.

[Two Horses]

I used IMR-4198 and got good results, but the AA5744 had better groups. I would plan to test Reloder 7, IMR-4198, AA 5744 and I have a new Lab Radar on order. Once it comes in I will have better data on velocity then.

You mention .45-70 dies. Are you shooting .45-60 or .45-70?   

[locolarry]

I am shooting 45-60. I could not find 45-60 dies so I bought Lee 45-70 dies and factory crimp die and a machine shop is taking 0.22 inches off them for me. I have 5744 and 4198 that I am going to try.Was thinking of also trying the Hornady 250 gr. Monoflex bullet also. . .maybe. Have some 305 gr bear creek coated bullets also but the crimp Groove is not quite in the right spot a member on another forum uses them with good results using a Lee factory crimp die to get them to the correct OAL and Unique powder. Thanks two horses

[Two Horses]

Redding makes a 3 die set for the .45-60. #80570.

The .45-60 is a slightly tapered case, whereas the .45-70 is more straight walled. Quality Cartridge is tooling up to run .45-60 Brass here in the next few weeks. I highly suggest you use their brass and get the Redding dies.

[matt45]

Yesterday I was out shooting Big bertha (my daughter's name for my 76).  She (the rifle, not the kid) really prefers Swiss 1 1/2 fg and the 350gr over the 300 gr.  To the point of group sizes shrinking by 1/2 to 2/3rds.  As a note, all of my cases for black powder have the flash hole drilled out to 0.096 as per J.S. Wolff, so that may be a factor as well