rivets . . rivets . . rivets . . . use, seam stress, etc. comments/thoughts?

[bedbugbilly]

Whenever I've made a "period" item, such as a Civil War period item and have had to use rivets, I've always used the old style copper rivets with a burr.  I know that they have been around for years and are authentic.  Recently, I had a couple of orders for semi-auto holsters.  When I make a holster, I've always done (or tried to) a double row of stitching near the top of the bucket where the triggerguard would be pressing/stressing the seam.  On the semi-auto holsters, I tried to reinforce that area with a single "rapid rivet" and I have to say I was pleased with the results.  As a result, I've added an inventory of various sizes/finishes of the "double cap rivets" as I like their "finished look".  I'm just curious - how many of you utilize the old style copper rivets and how many utilize the double dome style if you need to use a rivet?  The only seam stress on the holsters I've made for my own personal use is due to either "field wear" or "range wear".  The pistol is not coming out of the holster like it would for you CAS shooters.  For those of you that shoot CAS and the like and who give your holsters a good work out - do you think a double seam at the top of the bucket is really necessary or what are your thoughts on using an authentic rivet in that location and starting the seam sewing just below it?  Do your holsters show seam stress in that area after the hard repeated use you give it?  What are your thoughts on the "double dome" rivet in regards to using them on "period" leather - I've seen similar rivets on some originals that I've examined but still question their use?  Thanks for comments/info.     Sorry the photo isn't that good but it will give you the idea of what I'm talking about.  Thanks.

[Cliff Fendley]

I use those from time to time on more modern style pieces.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre]

I usually use rivits for mounting straps and such. I've never found a need for one on a holster. My preference for stitching a holster is to start at the top of the holster, at the third hole. I go up to the first hole, then reverse myself. This strengthens the top of the holster by having the fisrt two stitches doubled. I find that it's perfectly strong for any use. I made my Cowboy holsters this way. It also gives a slightly cleaner look instead of a double row of stitching.

[bedbugbilly]

Sgt.  - I usually do the same thing in regards to starting lower, stitching up and then back down to give a double stitch.  When I do a double stitch line, I start at the top, stitch down the length of the second stitch line, go up the second stitch line and then back down again which gives a double stitch the lenght of the second stitch line.  I'm not advocating using rivets all the time.  I like to do reproductions of "factory made" holsters from the late 1800's and early 1900's - the types sold through Sears and other mail order houses during thsoe periods.  They weren't the best of quality - not like a lot of the better know makers.  I have one that I inherited with a Belgium Colt SAA and it has rivets at the stress points and the narrow belt loop is riveted on as well.  I would imagine that labor and material costs of sewing versus a quick rivet came in to play on them.  At some shows over the last couple of years, I've had a chance to look at and examine a few "original" holsters here in AZ.  Some of the holsters were with the original pistol - some were obviously really used from the wear they showed.  Only a couple had a rivet at the top of the stitch line.  One looked like it was made that way and the other one looked like a "repair" - probably done by a harness maker - it was a copper rivet and burr.  The double dome rivets I'm pretty much saving for more "modern" applications.  I'm thinking of doing a couple of holsters that represent something that may have been made by a harness shop - a leatherworker who was more experienced in making harness than holsters and utilizing some of their techniques combining saddle stitching and the old copper rivets.  I'm also curious about the amout of wear/stress at the bucket opening on "well used" holsters.  "Packing Iron" gives some good photos but was interested in what the pards on here had to say about it.  Many thanks!

[LoneRider]

I usually use rivits for mounting straps and such. I've never found a need for one on a holster. My preference for stitching a holster is to start at the top of the holster, at the third hole. I go up to the first hole, then reverse myself. This strengthens the top of the holster by having the fisrt two stitches doubled. I find that it's perfectly strong for any use. I made my Cowboy holsters this way. It also gives a slightly cleaner look instead of a double row of stitching.

+1

[Skeeter Lewis]

H. H. Heiser of Denver, Colorado almost always used a rivet at the top of the holster and often at the toe as well. That look to me places a holster in the 1900-1930 period, which is fine for Wild Bunch shooting.

Back-stitching was enough back in the day. CAS though makes greater demands on the leather.

I'm starting to find those early twentieth-century holsters interesting in their own right. They're part of a continuing development.

Bedbug, I'd like to see some pics.....

Skeet

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  I think to, the reason rivets were used on some of these manufactures holsters, was because of the thin thread they used in that time period, it isn't near as strong as the thread we use today, my Dad had some old holsters that had the rivets in them, and the thread was so thin, it looked like it was the same type used for  sewing cloths, he also had a knife sheath that was the same way, they used a lot of sewing machines to sew there leather, very few were hand sewn, except for the better custom makers, so the use of rivets was a must, so it is true if you are duplicating some of these different period holster, rivets were used quite a bit, the stitch those sewing machines used back then and I'm not sure it's any different now, along with the thin thread, it was well known that the thread wouldn't hold up for very long, and would break at stress points, my Dad later on added rivets where the thread was giving way, and this was a common fix back in the day, the thread they use in there machines today is leaps and bounds better than what they used back then.IMHO

   tEN wOLVES

[bedbugbilly]

Ten Wolves - I think you brought up a good point on the machine stitching - something I hadn't given a thought to.  A lot of these older "production" holsters were machine stitched as you pointed out and the ones I've examined are usually done in a light weight "thread".  The only photos I have with me in AZ (where I spend the winter) are of the holster and Belgium Colt I inherited that was my great uncle's.  He was born in the mid to late 1870s and for a time, was a traveling rep for International Harvester - from postcards that we had that were sent by him to my grandmother - he traveled through Nebraska, Kansas, the Dakotas and a number of other states.  I don't know how he came to own this pistol and leather or where he got it.  I do know that based on the Belgium proofmarks on the pistol, it is post 1893.  It is a 32 WCF (32-20).  The holster seam does not have a rivet but it is machine sewn in the manner Ten Wolves was talking about.  The belt loop on the back is just a strip of leather, about an inch wide, that is riveted on the top and bottom.  The cartridge belt has machine sewn loops but the buckle and buckle strap is riveted on as well.  I'm sure this was a very cheap holster and belt at the time - certainly not "custom".  The embossing appears to be "rolled".  The leather for the holster and cartridge belt both was perhaps 8 oz - possible thinner but not any heavier than that.  As can be seen, the flap had an extra slot cut in to it to accomodate the Belgium Colt.  With the width of the belt loop and the weight of the leather, the holster had to be quite "flimsy" when worn on the belt.  I'd rate it as a typical "greenhorn" ooutfit.  My guess would be that the holster dates to about 1900 to possibly the teens?  I've got one cut out similar to this one only in about 8 oz that I'm making for my 1910 Colt Army Special - 38 sp. with 6 inch barrel.  I'm modifying the belt loop though and making it wder so the holster will carry better.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  bedbugbilly, you're a lucky pard, to have this in your possession,I have my Great Uncles side by side Stevens shotgun, he was born in 1869 or there a bout's, he lived to a 102, my Dad got it when he was a young man, and now it's mine, these are treasures, It's nice to have a piece of your family's past,  the gun leather for your Uncles gun is typical for that period. and like I was saying, the thread was so thin and didn't hold very well at all, rivets were the DUCK tape of the day, and they're still used today, I for one use them to get that period look to my work.

             Thanks for sharing

                 tEN wOLVES   

[Wild Billy Potts]

I've got 3 pieces of Civil War era equipment around here and all three are sew with standard weight hand sewing thread. The bayonet scabbard is sewn around 12 stiches per inch, the cap pouch and bayonet frog are sewn about 8 spi. The belt loops on the cap pouch are both riveted and sewn.

[bedbugbilly]

Wild Billy - copper rivets were very commonly used at that time.  I have original cartridge boxes, cap boxes and a bayonet/scabbard that all had the copper rivets used on them.  Over the years, I've seen and examined a number of original cartridge boxes and while they all conform to government standards, they sometimes have some minor variations.  An example is the attachment of the cover strap - I've seeen them sewn and I've seen them riveted - depending on the contractor who made them.   I have an original socket bayonet/scabbard that I know was issued with a Colt special musket.  The workmanship on it is fantastic - well sewn seam but the frog is entirely riveted - I don't have a photo of it with me and its back in MI in my safe but I believe there are 7 rivets used to construct the frog - copper with copper burrs.  I have a Confederate cartridge box that is a 54 caliber size - I'm guessing probably made to use with a Mississippe Rifle.  The leatherwork is good but the sewn seams are horrendous - stitches not evenly spaced - very crude job of sewing.  The contract flap holsters I've owned and examined have all had copper rivets used in them for attaching the belt loop, etc.  As with the cartridge boxes  though, the flap strap was sometimes sewn on and sometimes riveted on.  The "acorn" strap stud was predominatly brass although I have seen one copper one and have seen them made out of lead on several Confederate pieces - both cap boxes and cartridge boxes.

[Wild Billy Potts]

Agreed Bedbugbilly. My cap pouch is an Allegheny Arsenal style that supposedly wasn't produced after late 1862, which makes it kind of an oddity, both being the non-standard style and the early usage of copper rivets, that were mostly mid war in acceptance. The frog and bayonet scabbard are both the English style with the frog dated 1864. The English utilized child labor quite heavily at that time in the leather and harness trades which may explain the tight perfect stitching on the scabbard. Wonder if they used boar bristles for needles.