Trying to find history and parts for 1860 Spencer Carbine ** Photos Added **

[Indiearms]

Hello SSS,

Last weekend, I was working on a indie film, and the Exec Producer calls me over and asked if I could ID a rifle (knowing that as a film armorer, I might know.)  I looked at this old rifle and tell him it is a Spencer Carbine.  He then asks if I liked it, and I said it was beautiful and full of history.  He then says it's mine and to take it home and give it a loving home.

He found it in the So Cal High Desert about 15 years ago in a desert wash, half buried.

The action was rusted solid (I freed that up), it is missing the lock plate assembly and trigger linkage, the stock is busted pretty bad, and the barrel will never fire a real round again (rusted/pitted).  But I am going to restore this piece of history to at least a re-enactment level (blanks)










                                       (Photos added by Two Flints)

So.......Two things:

1.  I need parts
and
2.  Looking to track down the pedigree on it.   Serial #15285

Thank you all in advance for any assistance in this......

New SSS member,

Steve  aka  indie arms

[Indiearms]

Thanks Two Flints!

[Two Flints]

Indie Arms,

No thanks necessary.  That's why I get paid the "big bucks"

Be specific and list the parts you think you will need at least for the time being

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

What a great find! You would be amazed at what a restorer can do. Bobby Hoyt or Larry Romano could sleeve the barrel and make it shootable again. They could also check out the frame to see if there are any cracks or problems that would make it unsafe. S&S Firearms, Lodgewood Mfg. or Ed Kneisley will have the parts you need. Is the magazine tube brass, or is that just the photo? Brass tubes show up from time to time, usually on civilian Spencers that were made from parts that didn't pass government inspection. Speaking of inspection, the PM under the barrel is the armory sub-inspector stamp, so at least that part passed. Spencer started delivering carbines in October of 1863 at around serial number 10,000. Your carbine would have been made in late fall of '63. The number under the barrel should match the number at the back top surface of the frame.

Keep us posted on how the restoration goes.

[Herbert]

I agree this is the type of Spencer that would be better of with a full restoration it would not harm its colectors value ,it would improve it and you would be able to choose between relineing with a more versitile cartridge the 56-50,or the original 56-56

[Indiearms]

Fall of '63.....  Nice!  Getting closer to finding out who and where this was issued.

As to the tube........It actually is brass.

Parts I will be needing:

Lock plate assembly (including hammer and all small parts)
Trigger linkage with all springs
Rear sight
The little leaf shims with holes in them that go between the frame of the receiver and the action.
Magazine cover for buttstock

Mind you, I am new to a Spencer rifle, so my nomenclature is probably making y'all cringe.  

Thank you so much for your input guys!!!!!!

AZ Trooper:  The serials #'s do match. The top one is pretty worn, but I do see it under the right light.

[Two Flints]

Indie,

First of all, you have to read my standard disclaimer that I print out for everyone who asks for Spencer serial # information.  So, here it is:

Some time ago I acquired the four volume set of the Springfield Research Service (SRS) Serial Numbers of U.S. Martial Arms. I purchased the set so I could maybe help SSS members identify which unit their original Spencer Carbine or rifle was issued or assigned to during, and perhaps, after the Civil War.

Unfortunately, not all the Spencer serial numbers are listed in the four volume set I own. And, to make identification even more difficult, there are gaps between indicated serial numbers. This paragraph is a DISCLAIMER of sorts. As a courtesy to SSS members, I am happy to reveal to you the information I have regarding the serial number of your Spencer carbine or rifle. But, please remember, I am just regurgitating what I read in my SRS volumes with some "unscientific conjecture" on my part. What I do is the following: I take your Spencer serial number and try to place it in between the two closest serial numbers I find listed in my SRS volume. In most cases, if the serial numbers for the Spencer before and after your own serial number were issued to the same unit, I assume your Spencer may have been assigned to the same unit. Or, if your Spencer serial number is very, very close to another Spencer serial number in my SRS volume(s), I assume your Spencer went to the same unit. I call this the "Two Flints guesstimation".  I'm guessing and estimating at the same time on what I believe to be correct information based upon the information I find in my four volume set of SRS.  I make no claim to the accuracy of my "unscientific conjecture" and you should use the information I offer only if you want to, and to not accept it as Gospel.  And that is the best that I can do for you.    

My SRS books show a Spencer Carbine, serial # 15,202 as being issued or reissued to a member of Co. E, 7th PA Volunteer Cavalry on or about February, 1865, and
another Spencer carbine, serial # 15,327, as being issued to a member of Co. L, 2nd Michigan Cavalry on or about February, 1864.  

Your Spencer Carbine, serial # 15,285 falls in between the above listed serial #s. So, there is a good chance your Spencer Carbine might have been issued to one of the two indicated units.  

Again, please remember my disclaimer

[JimBob]

What a find.Those found relic guns like that have a charm all their own.I'm a little different in opinion,beyond preserving it to prevent deterioration I would preserve it in as found condition and record the finding of it and how you came into possesion.

[5judge]

Gunbroker.com has a number of the parts you need currently up for auction. Had an entire lock  (hammer, guts, and lockplate) recently, I believe.

[Trailrider]

The records of the Springfield Research do tell where some of these old military guns were at one point.  Those records that show state units from the Civil War, unfortunately don't tell the "rest of the story"!  In the first place, even though we can bracket the serial number with others close to it, that doesn't mean that gun was issued to one of those units.  The reason is that these guns were packed in crates, so many to the crate. They were usually packed without regard to the serial number. So they might have gone with a group to a completely different unit.

Having stated that disappointing piece of information, there is more news...good or bad...  Many of these Spencers were sold off as surplus after the War, and almost anyone could have purchased it...  But there is also the possibility that the gun was issued to a cavalry unit on the Western frontier!  It might be helpful to know where in the California desert it was found. Then one might check what cavalry units (including California volunteer units during the Civil War, as well as what units might have been out there after the War.

The problem is us humans don't "speak gun", and these old pieces don't talk human, either!    What a story they might tell!

[Indiearms]

I actually do know where in the So Cal Desert it was found.  It was 10 miles outside Apple Valley on a ranch.  That was going to be my next inquiry, "What Cavarly units were in the Southern California desert after the Civil war."

And here is a possible candidate:http://mojavedesert.net/military/camp-cady.html

[Arizona Trooper]

A lot of "second class" guns were issued by the army to settlers and scouts during the 1870s, especially when there were bandit or Indian problems afoot. Second class consisted of non-current models (like Spencers and Sharps), rebuilt arms (early Trapdoors, especially M-1866 and M-1868) and so on. Yours could be a ranch gun provided by Uncles Sam in the 1870s or '80s.

Does your Spencer have three groove or 6 groove rifling? If it's 3, then your carbine was rebuilt at Springfield after the war and sleeved to 50 caliber for 56-50 ammunition.

[irish9th]

Id agree with trailrider serial number range does not mean much from the 4 volume set. Norm Flaydermans 9th edition Guide to Antique American Fireams book states " A WORD OF CAUTION: Locating a gun just one number apart from a listed piece doesn't count! It's considered a complete miss. The mere close proximity does not indicate that it was part of the same lot or issued to the same unit. Interesting,yes value,no." I found this to be true on a Sharps I purchased its 3 numbers away from a Sharps Carbine issued to the 6th Illinois cavalry but it was carried by a soldier in the 9th Illinois. I ordered his Military not pension file and he purchased his carbine and number was listed at time of his discharge. As for parts Ive been buying Spencer  and Sharps parts on Ebay they are always on there. Just make sure you check feedback ratings. I find Ebay cheaper then Gunbroker. Joe

[Two Flints]

To All,

  Doesn't anyone read my disclaimer    I never claim to be 100% accurate with my findings or information    Geeez

Two Flints

[Indiearms]

Two Flints, I read it, and totally know what you are saying.  But you have given me at least a starting point to consider.  Which is way more than I had prior to this.

And for that, even if the info does not help, I thank you.  I will try to keep everyone apprised of my ventures tracking the history down on this rifle.

As a second note, should I insure this rifle?  And if so, for how much?

[irish9th]

Two Flints I have read it and understand it. I just thourght it was a new guy and wanted to let him know more info on serial numbers. You gave me a hell of a lot of info in our emails that I was very much thankful to you for. As for my Spencer Carbine Serial number 61241 I know I will never find anything on it. There is nothing on the Spencers from 59000 to 62000. But now I dont care I purchased a beautiful piece of history. It has cartouches and it was def carried as has the knocks and dings from saddle ring. After getting over that I wont ever know anything on it, I kinda got happy. Now I can just think maybe it was with Major Elliot at Washita or Lt Kidder or purchased surplus and went west on a wagon train. Its History whatever it comes down to. They just started showing the show wagon train recently which was way before my time but the first epissode I watched the guy talked about a Spencer. Ive bought over 20 rounds , the Spencer Tool, Marcots book ,and now Im buying documents just listing Spencers . Ive become a Spencer addict. I still think Ill try firing some of the original rounds. Im already well VA compensated from Iraq so Ill wear good Eye protection and try a few rounds as my barrel is very clean and been cleaning it. I purchased I think the best 20 rounds cavalry cartridge box Ive ever seen , looks like new no flaking and fits the Spencer shells like a glove my other 2 boxs fit Burnside and Sharps so the wood blocks indeed were made for diff weapons.. Im learning Two Flints. I was never questioning the helpful info you give to so many. Joe

[Indiearms]

Just wanted to give y'all an update.

Been doing some serious digging and research for this project.  There was a string of Cavalry camp/forts all throughout Southern California Desert, and some intense Indian skirmishes.

I get the feeling by the time this is all done, I may be an "expert" on the subject.  My head is swimming with all the postings, routes, encampments, assignments, and stories about the Cavalry and the California Volunteers

[JimBob]

Just wanted to give y'all an update.

Been doing some serious digging and research for this project.  There was a string of Cavalry camp/forts all throughout Southern California Desert, and some intense Indian skirmishes.

I get the feeling by the time this is all done, I may be an "expert" on the subject.  My head is swimming with all the postings, routes, encampments, assignments, and stories about the Cavalry and the California Volunteers

Keep in mind that most all regular Army Cavaly units were equiped with arms other than Spencers by about 1871.Some records are available as to units and armament at given times.You're area of search and dates forts/camps were active would fit in a fairly small number of years post CW for military usage of your Spencer.Given the dates of deliveries of Spencers to the Gov't. a possible time frame would be roughly 1866 to 1870 to search in,which units were active at what posts in that period.Civilian usage,who knows.Scouts could have been carrying a Spencer also at about any date during the Indian Wars.

[Indiearms]

I have been starting to lean to the "scout" theory for my Spencer as well, Jimbob, since it has a brass feed tube.

BTW, for anyone interested, because of all this research, I am writing a book about the story where it was found.  The story is based in the Mojave Desert and chronicles a US Cavalry Captain's posting there.  Fictional, but encompasses many facts and history references.  I am at 30 pages so far.

Please PM me your real names if you want me to put you in my "thanks".

[JimBob]

I have been starting to lean to the "scout" theory for my Spencer as well, Jimbob, since it has a brass feed tube.

BTW, for anyone interested, because of all this research, I am writing a book about the story where it was found.  The story is based in the Mojave Desert and chronicles a US Cavalry Captain's posting there.  Fictional, but encompasses many facts and history references.  I am at 30 pages so far.

Please PM me your real names if you want me to put you in my "thanks".

There was a 5 volumne set of books called Eyewitnesses To the Indian Wars by Peter Cozzens that has a lot of information about the Indian Wars.It's an accumulation of writings and reports from the period as well as personal accounts by those involved at the time.It is interesting reading about the times and people.