Which is the 'right' 44-40 bullet for accuracy?

[Springfield Slim]

This is a MAV-Dutchman bullet from my molds. Not sure what that other pic is. I bought my moulds from the Dutchman himself, so this is the original bullet. As to when I will start testing, first we need to get some more guys who want this bullet so I can do a group buy from LEE. 52.00/mould with a 150.00 set-up fee unless we get 25 takers, then they waive the fee. I would buy 2 of them. If we only got 10 takers then it would be 67.50 plus shipping per mould.

[Bryan Austin]

This is a MAV-Dutchman bullet from my molds. Not sure what that other pic is. I bought my moulds from the Dutchman himself, so this is the original bullet. As to when I will start testing, first we need to get some more guys who want this bullet so I can do a group buy from LEE. 52.00/mould with a 150.00 set-up fee unless we get 25 takers, then they waive the fee. I would buy 2 of them. If we only got 10 takers then it would be 67.50 plus shipping per mould.

Example of differences in the Mav Dutchman castings?
Springfield, there are obvious variations in the Mav Dutchman production molds. Here is a photo of one of your bullets sized to 427 I purchased from you a while back (and a fine one) with the darker lube and what looks to be a nicer crimp groove. http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

I purchased a Mav Dutchman 6 cavity mold from DD as well as the lube. As you can see my casting (sized to 429) has a larger lube groove. http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=d29838a1-de1d-4767-9b74-192b1f1c0db4


Why the variations I do not know, could be my amateur casting, but both are being called the Mav Dutchman Big Lube bullet.

[Springfield Slim]

Dick Dastardly changes the specs on the moulds at his whim. There are now 4 versions of the J/P 200 bullets, for example. I have the second and third versions.  I also have 2 Big Lube 38-40 moulds, and the nose length diffference varies over 30 thou. I bought them a couple of years apart, so they were different batches from LEE. He tends to like to increase the lube groove size.

[Bryan Austin]

Dick Dastardly changes the specs on the moulds at his whim. There are now 4 versions of the J/P 200 bullets, for example. I have the second and third versions.  I also have 2 Big Lube 38-40 moulds, and the nose length diffference varies over 30 thou. I bought them a couple of years apart, so they were different batches from LEE. He tends to like to increase the lube groove size.

Learn something new every day!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Just my 2 cents to follow. I bought a MAV mould from THE very first batch back in 2002 or 2003. I think it was '03. This was way before D.D. was peddling them. A buddy of mine loved the mould and got one from the next batch and it was different in that the nose was flatter. Personally, I think it had more to do with Lee and who was running the machines there when they cut them. I don't really see what all the hubbub is over a 44-40 LR bullet anyway. It's a 100 yd. rifle at best. Besides, those who rattled off their rounds quickly at distances over 100 yds. probably get scalped while reloading.  The cavalry taught soldiers to use the Stabler Cut Off on the '65 Spencer and only "bunch" the shots when the hostiles were at halitosis range.

[Henry4440]

I don't really see what all the hubbub is over a 44-40 LR bullet anyway. It's a 100 yd. rifle at best. Besides, those who rattled off their rounds quickly at distances over 100 yds. probably get scalped while reloading.  The cavalry taught soldiers to use the Stabler Cut Off on the '65 Spencer and only "bunch" the shots when the hostiles were at halitosis range.

My problem is , that i can shoot good groups from 150m - 200m with the forbidden stuff. But i have problems to get shoot it with the holy black. My favorite stuff is BLACK POWDER. I like the smoke , fire and sound of BP.Get fantastic results when i shoot my Sharps up to 600m. My favorite rifle is however my Henry. I try everthing with the 427666 bullet. Change the alloy up and down and got no better results. So i hope that another bullet will help me.
Had a talk with a friend in Denmark yesterday, and he told me that he has the same problems with the Lyman 427666 for his Win 73. He shoots the same WM Bullet that i shoot with the forbidden stuff and got the same results more or less then i do.
So i think that our problem is the BULLET.

P.S. this is not a discussion between BP and the forbidden stuff.

[Springfield Slim]

When I want to reach out there I prefer to use my 38-55, or maybe my 45-70, but we don't have any ranges here that go more than 200 yards. Don't figure I will get many takers for this longer range bullet, not really greatly inthused with it myself but I have a thing for buying bullet moulds. Might just get a 2 cavity version in brass from Mountain Molds if I don't get lots of takers here. If you ever want matching molds from DD make sure you get ones from the same batch, otherwise you might be disappointed. I'm sure LEE is responsible for some of the differences also. They don't cut with a  cherry so it is easy to get differences from batch to batch.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Slim, sound words. The problem is I hate to buy a mould and find out the design is a lemon in that say it shoots no better than that which it sought to replace. Then again, if it is more period correct than say the MAV AND shoots just as good to 100yds. why not.  

P.S. Lonesome, I am NOT the moderator here. I merely deduced why your smokeless post was deleted. If you have a problem contact the moderator.

[Bryan Austin]

I don't really see what all the hubbub is over a 44-40 LR bullet anyway. It's a 100 yd. rifle at best. Besides, those who rattled off their rounds quickly at distances over 100 yds. probably get scalped while reloading.   The cavalry taught soldiers to use the Stabler Cut Off on the '65 Spencer and only "bunch" the shots when the hostiles were at halitosis range.

What I read mostly on all theses forums is folks shooting targets, not game or people whether its at 50 feet or 1 mile. If I can hit the same target at 300 meters with a 38-40 as with a 45-110, why not? Its just a target right?  

Its as if some guys don't want the new 44-40 design bullet to succeed. How interesting! All I own is a Marlin 1894C 357 carbine and several rifles chambered in 44wcf. Although I would like to own a Winchester 1876, I really have no desire to own a large cal rifle. I just asume hit a target at 200 yards with my 44-40 for fun as some of you guys hit targets at a mile with your large cal single shots.

To each his own!

[Springfield Slim]

My club shoots regular 3 gun matches one weekend and the long range stuff another. I rarely go to the LR match, just difficult to squeeze in that third shoot a month, what with the kids and wife and all. I shoot my 38-55 maybe 3 times a year, once at the annual shoot where we shoot at 100 yards and a couple other times just for fun after the regular shoot. So I am no expert at LR shooting at all. I threw out that 44-40 bullet just so some people more experienced than myself could enlighten me as to whether it was worth doing at all. Looks like the jury is still out. The main problem seems to be most don't shoot long range with 44-40, and I don't blame them. Might be fun though, especially with my Henry, which outshoots my '66's all day long. 

[w44wcf]

Lonesome Henry,

When I do testing to get the very best accuracy comparisons between different load recipes, I eliminate as many variables as possible.  To do that, I use bullets only from 1 cavity in a multiple cavity and do a thorough quality check of each bullet and only use those that weigh within + - .3 grs.  

I have learned from experience that to use all the bullets from a multiple cavity mold and just visually inspect bullets without weighing them can give mixed results.

Regarding the accuracy differences at longer distances between your two recipies, perhaps the difference in muzzle velocities (if there is any) could be playing a role as well.

w44wcf  

[w44wcf]

Mako,
Thank you for the kind words.   The 2 driving band contact area with no nose contact area worked very well with the 250 gr. bullet in the .45 Colt at b.p. velocity  in the 1/38" twist barrel.  There was a nice grease star when testing the modified 454190 bullet (middle drive band removed).

By interpolation, then, the same would be true for the .44-40 with a bullet being 20% lighter in the same 1/38" twist which would require a bit less torqe.  However, not leaving things to interpolation, this morning I modified some 427098 bullets by machining away the middle driving band and will be testing them in the near future when the weather moderates a bit....hopefully within the next week or two.....

THe seating depth of the proposed bullet for long distance accuracy is .36".  The seating depth of the MAV is .34" so the powder capacity would be very similar.

The proposed bullet design for a group buy was started on the Cast Boolits forum in answer to the question posted by the thead starter looking for a bullet that would have the same profile as the original .44-40 bullet that could be used with Goex b.p. The current 427098 does not have the lube capacity to run with Goex for many shots....at least in a 24" barrel.  By using the 427098 profile and eliminating the middle driving band, lube capacity is increased.

w44wcf  



 

[Springfield Slim]

If you want to do a test of a bullet with a small meplat but a decent lube capacity there is always this one. Only 165 grains, though.

[w44wcf]

Slim,
Thank you for that suggestion. That would be an interestIng test. 

In this case, though, I need to test the viability of the proposed bullet's design so I will need to stay with that profile.   

w44wcf

[Henry4440]

The current 427098 does not have the lube capacity to run with Goex for many shots....at least in a 24" barrel.
 

I only use Swiss black powder. IMO the best black powder, unfortunately also the priciest. They increase the price by 20%, so 1kg Swiss black powder will cost here in Germany €66 or $90.

[w44wcf]

Henry,
In my experience SWISS is the only current b.p. that will run the 427098 well for many shots without fouling out.
In testing, the 427098 is the only .44-40 bullet that gave the best long range accuracy with b.p. You would be well served to get that mold and use it for your longer ranges.

The proposed design will run will with any black powder because of the additional lube capacity and as I will soon post with a pic,  I did shoot some of these at 100 yards and they shot as well as the 427098.

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Had a chance to test the proposed bullet for longer range accuracy with Goex.  I removed the middle driving band on 15 - 427098 bullets with my lathe.  Used the first 5 to get sighted in and foul the barrel.

The initial testing at 100 yards would indicate that it shoots just about as well as the standard 427098 at that distance.  

The black is 5 1/2" diameter.   Group size 2.61" with 7 of the shots a shade under 2".  



w44wcf

[Mako]

John,
That is very respectable for a .44WCF!  Looks like it could be a rival for the accuracy you got with the 427098 bullet.

I know you said you have experience with larger meplat bullets like the Mav Dutchman, do you have any comparison groups?  A target picture would be really telling...

For all we know you have one of those "One-of-a –thousand" Winchesters like Lin McAdam was competing for.  (Don't you wish...  )

Regards,
Mako

[Henry4440]

Had a chance to test the proposed bullet for longer range accuracy with Goex.  I removed the middle driving band on 15 - 427098 bullets with my lathe.  Used the first 5 to get sighted in and foul the barrel.

The initial testing at 100 yards would indicate that it shoots just about as well as the standard 427098 at that distance.  

The black is 5 1/2" diameter.   Group size 2.61" with 7 of the shots a shade under 2".  



w44wcf

That is a really nice group!!!!
Unfortunately i have to wait to mid-march before i get my 427098 mould.
So i have to use the forbidden stuff , when i shoot the 100m.

[Mako]

That is a really nice group!!!!
Unfortunately i have to wait to mid-march before i get my 427098 mould.
So i have to use the forbidden stuff , when i shoot the 100m.

Henry,
Will you have a modified mold as well?  John had to modify his bullets one by one on a lathe to give him the lubrication groove needed to keep the rifle running trouble free with Black Powder loads.

If not, how are you planning on dealing with the fouling?

Regards,
Mako