Which is the 'right' 44-40 bullet for accuracy?

[w44wcf]

Henry,
The alloy was w.w.+ 2% tin used in the bullets that fired that group and at the 300M steel javelina . That is the alloy I use the most. It has BHN of 12.     20/1 seems to do about as well in my limited experience with it.  

w44wcf

[Springfield Slim]

Has anyone considered that the reason the MAV isn't as good at distance isn't the meplat but the large lube groove causing more drag? Kinda like a pickup truck with the tailgate up. Be interesting if Savvy's bullet does any better, considering the large lube groove. If I was going to shrink the meplat I think I would go further and make it more like the 454190.

[Mako]

Slim,
When it's all said and done it comes down to bearing surface.  It's true with shoulder fired rifle through very large naval rifle projectiles.  The bullet has to spin about the designed axis.

Big Lube^TM or larger groove shapes like the one Jack shows will work well to stop fouling, but you don't have to look too long to see the common denominator for the very accurate long range bullets used in sports such as BPCR.  They all have lots of bands which keep the bullet lined up, stop tipping in the bore and get that bullet spinning about the center of mass, not just spinning.  The interrupted bands minimize friction and give multiple places to add lubricants.

For our CAS "pistol" cartridge bullets we have by their very design stumpy bullets with minimal bearing surface, a singe deep lube groove serves us very well in that application.  The distance the bearing surfaces extend in the axis direction as Jack has tried to do will help, but with soft lead bullets the likelihood of off center engraving is increased with minimized bearing bands.  That central band on the #454190 design is not a vestigial surface, it serves a very important purpose in aligning that bullet.

The flat meplat changes the shape and location of the shock wave.  Blunt forms tend to have detached shock waves which extend in front of the projectile.  One of the reasons hollow points are used for match rifle bullets is that they separate the bow wave slightly from the projectile tip allowing a secondary wave to stabilize the bullet at the base or at the point the waist decreases in the case of a boat tail design.  

Blunt forms with a low aspect ratio tends to shed velocity faster, but that is not the primary culprit in the loss of accuracy.  It does contribute to higher wind drift and more elevation drop, but don't confuse accuracy with either of those two phenomenon. "Projectile Accuracy" which can be isolated from firearm accuracy is the consistency of the behavior of a projectile from shot to shot using the same conditions (i.e. velocity, base pressure, etc.).  The number one cause for the lack of projectile accuracy is the projectile not spinning about the correct axis of the mass.  These lead to precession, vibration and ultimately yaw or even tumbling.

Until proven wrong I will maintain more or longer bearing surfaces are what you need for longer range accuracy.  When you see targets that have decent grouping at 50 yds. but don't maintain that same accuracy extrapolated to 100 , 200 or 300 yds.  It means the bullet wasn't spinning about it's designed axis and the precession has spread the group into an irregular pattern that is random when looked at as a group.  At the closer ranges the rotation and the fact precession hasn't yet induced significant yaw makes it appear accurate.  All projectiles will ultimately behave in this manner as they shed velocity and rotational speed, That is why in some cases we have different projectiles for different distances.

Regards,
Mako

[Bryan Austin]

Has anyone considered that the reason the MAV isn't as good at distance isn't the meplat but the large lube groove causing more drag? Kinda like a pickup truck with the tailgate up. Be interesting if Savvy's bullet does any better, considering the large lube groove. If I was going to shrink the meplat I think I would go further and make it more like the 454190.

Tailgate up gets better gas mileage. Saw that one on Mythbusters ;-)

Be interesting if Savvy's bullet does any better

Just remember it ain't my bullet....I guess its Swede Nelson's over here: http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=102929

[Springfield Slim]

Now I don't feel so bad about leaving my tailgate up. Always thought it might get better mileage but wasn't willing to risk damage to the tailgate. Hate those net things. Every bullet is a compromise in design. Lots of small lube grooves and they can be more difficult to lube in a sizer. Small lube grooves for more bearing surface and not enough lube for BP. Large lube grooves work well for BP but may ruin the long range capability. Put in a very small meplat to improve accuracy(maybe) and some guy will complain that it isn't safe in lever actions due to primer detonation. There is no magic bullet.

[Dick Dastardly]

For the very best accuracy out of that 44-40, try an absolutely smooth sided cast bullet with a long ogive and a paper patch.  Of course, don't forget to wipe the barrel after EVERY shot. . . .

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

For the very best accuracy out of that 44-40, try an absolutely smooth sided cast bullet with a long ogive and a paper patch.  Of course, don't forget to wipe the barrel after EVERY shot. . . .

DD-DLoS

[w44wcf]

Has anyone considered that the reason the MAV isn't as good at distance isn't the meplat but the large lube groove causing more drag? .......

Slim,
I can say that I have shot other bullets with wide meplats in the 44-40 and 45 Colt that had normal size lube grooves and accuracy was not that great either at longer distances with groups measured in feet rather than inches.

Several years ago I took some 454190's and machined away the middle driving band for more lube capacity.  Accuracy at 100 yards was the same as the standard 454190. I never did try them at longer distances though.

w44wcf

[Henry4440]

WHERE IS MY POST??

[Fox Creek Kid]

WHERE IS MY POST??

Es ist verboten, des Rauchschwache Pulver in diesem Forum zu sprechen.   

[Springfield Slim]

So I was playing around with the Mountain Molds software and exprimenting, always a dangerous thing with me. I did up a bullet with a small meplat like 44wcf likes, more bearing surface like Mako likes, larger lube grooves like I like, and added a bit of weight for long distance shooting, figuring it would be less wind sensitive and have more weight to carry it longer distances.  Also has the right size nose to feed in Uberti toggle rifles.

[Bryan Austin]

Hey, that looks like the 454190 

[Mako]

Slim,
I can say that I have shot other bullets with wide meplats in the 44-40 and 45 Colt that had normal size lube grooves and accuracy was not that great either at longer distances with groups measured in feet rather than inches.

Several years ago I took some 454190's and machined away the middle driving band for more lube capacity.  Accuracy at 100 yards was the same as the standard 454190. I never did try them at longer distances though.

w44wcf

John,
If you think it's a good idea that is a high recommendation in my book.  I believe you have a bit of experience with the .44WCF

I still have a few questions though, do you have any concerns about the limited contact area even after your tests?  Were you getting a good grease star on the barrel end?  And the last question, what is the powder capacity of the cartridge with this bullet compared to the Mav Dutchman?

Give me a shout, I may get in on that group buy based on your experience.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

So I was playing around with the Mountain Molds software and exprimenting, always a dangerous thing with me. I did up a bullet with a small meplat like 44wcf likes, more bearing surface like Mako likes, larger lube grooves like I like, and added a bit of weight for long distance shooting, figuring it would be less wind sensitive and have more weight to carry it longer distances.  Also has the right size nose to feed in Uberti toggle rifles.

Slim will you stop it!!!???  John pretty much had me convinced to try the other design for longer range shooting .  A couple of the clubs I shoot with have been hanging 100yd targets on at least one stage.

Since he says he's prototyped the design that piqued my interest. 

How long is that bullet? 

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Hey, that looks like the 454190  

Not really...

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cartridges/SS.jpg http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cartridges/454-190.jpg
Are you just joking, or being serious?

How much did the calculator show it would weigh Slim?

Regards,
Mako

[Henry4440]

Some pics of 44-40 bullets.
427098



427666







432200



44 MAV Dutchman

[Henry4440]

So I was playing around with the Mountain Molds software and exprimenting, always a dangerous thing with me. I did up a bullet with a small meplat like 44wcf likes, more bearing surface like Mako likes, larger lube grooves like I like, and added a bit of weight for long distance shooting, figuring it would be less wind sensitive and have more weight to carry it longer distances.  Also has the right size nose to feed in Uberti toggle rifles.

When will you start with the first tests?

[Cuts Crooked]

Actually, that looks almost like the old Maxi Hunter bullet fer front stuffers. At least that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw it.  Weird... since the Maxi Ball is the grandfather of the Big Lube family.

Some years ago I played around with that software, trying to come up with a "big lube" design for 45-70s. What I ended up up with looked very similar to what DD has come up with for that caliber. However when I submitted my design to the company the owner had a small cow and wanted to know how I had corrupted his software to get the design I came up with.

[Bryan Austin]

Here is another LH

[Crow Choker]

Hey thar Lonesone Henry, after 23 posts and three pages since yer original question, all I can say is "Der ein jene treffen woher euer zielen auf"!!!!!! If my 'Deutsch' is not quite right, please forgive, some days my "Englische' isn't much better! -----Klach-Klach-Klach