OK - who's tried black powder in a .30-30

[Tangle Eye]

Well my .30-30 project is back on track after getting the barrel back from the gunsmith this morning.  As I work on load development with heathen smokeless powder I'd also like to try black powder. As I understand it, while the .30-30 was designed for smokeless powder, most folks reloaded them with black since smokeless wasn't readily available to the reloader back then.

So - I had a (supposedly) knowledgeable fella tell me this morning (at the gunsmith's place) to just basically fill the case up and seat the bullet.  OK - I might give that a try.

But - has anyone done any serious testing with black powder in a .30-30?  I'll be using a 180 grain cast bullet (Lyman) with a gas check.

[Arcey]

Naw, Tangle Eye.  Ain't never tried it.  Hope the thread keeps goin' though.  Could be interestin'.......





..

[El Paso Pete]

Lots of pards on different wires has asked the same question and have been told the same thing, the 30-30 was designed fer smokeless.

As I see it, the bullet is the problem.  Unless ya want to clean the bore after every shot you'll need a bullet that carries lots of lube, BP lube.  IMHO, if you can find a flat point bullet  with big enough lube grooves there is no reason a 30-30 should not be able to shoot black powder if you use SPG lube or somethin like it. 

[Tangle Eye]

Pete - you got a good point about the amount of lube.  I've been thinking about that and don't want to get into grease cookies, etc. wiith this rifle. I don't have to be concerned with bullet shape since its a single shot though so I'm flexible enough there. Of course right now I'm using bullets cast from the Lyman #311291 mould which is suitable for lever actions.

I may end up sticking with smokeless with this one but I've had such good luck with black powder in my other rifles I'm tempted to try it here to.

[Capt. Augustus]

I know that somewheres someone said they tried 777 in a .30-30.  I know from my .32-20 at close range shot 150 rounds and was still ringing steel.  I was using regular bullets in it.  Of course that's not shooting at 200 yards.

[El Peludo]

Well, here's the story as I have understood it; be aware that it may be un-factual, but this is what I have been told.

When the .30-30, or .30WCF was introduced, it was loaded from the factory with the then new smokeless powder.  However, smokeless was not readily available for reloading, so folks started to use their black powder in it, and found that their accuracy quickly went to pot, because of powder fouling in the barrel.  The .32 Wichester Special was introduced shortly thereafter, also as a smokeless round, but the larger bore supposedly reduced the fouling related accuracy problem when it was reloaded with blackpowder.  When smokeless powder became more readily available to folks who reloaded their own, the .30 bore became more popular, again, and the .32WS was relegated to history as an oddball that nobody really could find a need for.

So, you can load the .30-30 with blackpowder, just as you can load almost anything with it; but the performance will probably suffer.  To get top performance from it, you should stick to smokeless - or devise ways to overcome the potential fouling problems related to blackpowder.

As our own Colonel Dan says: "that's the view from my saddle."

P.S.: I have both .30-30 and .32WS model '94s, as well as .32-40 and .38-55.  For most practical purposes, there is not much difference between them, IMO.

P. P. S.:  I know, I know!  This does not answer your original question; I sure hope somebody will.

[Tangle Eye]

  Thanks for the info El Peludo - that story rings a bell  - I think I've heard it before.  Anyway - not really looking for a definitive answer - just wondered if anybody had any success with BP in the .30-30.  Thought we'd kick the idea around for a while anyway.

I'm leaning against it just because of bullet design at this point.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Tangle Eye,
I tried it in my Marlin 336. I used FFg 'cuz that's what I was using in my .45-70. At 50 yards, it was about 8" low. I decided it would work very well, so I gave up. But, now that ya brought this up, I might try FFFg to see if it will bring the POI up. I agree with El Paso Pete about the lube/fouling issue. I don't think a grease cookie would work well 'cuz, I think, the boolit would push the cookie down below the neck and possibly contaminate the powder. Another option would be the use of CleanShot/APP, which makes it's own lube.

Slim

[D. R. Greysun]

Hello TE,

I tell ya what I have found.  Not allot, couldn't make it work to my satisfaction.  My thinking is bottleneck cases don't lend themselves to the Holly Black.  A full case of BP FFg or FFFg in 30-30 won't build enough pressure to seal the case to chamber.  Nasty blow back will foul the action.  I've tried lube cookies under 165 Gn LFP boolits sizes to .308.  My notes tell me 42 Gn.Wt. Goex FFg, overpowder card, 1/8" lube cookie (all goes in the neck).     Sorry no speed notes, accuracy at 100 yards-Poor!  That probably mean I played hell getting on paper.  I believe bore fouling ruins accuracy and it's damn near impossible to get enough lube down the barrel.  Least wise with the 26 in. barrel on my Winchester.  30-30 is a poor candidate for BP, that does not mean it will not make allot a smoke and thunder.  Like lightin' from a storm, ya never know where it will strike.

D R

[Sergeant Smokepole]

Done it years ago. Accuracy was poor as expected. The factory made the .30 WCF for smokeeeeeless powder and the twist rate is indicative of that, 1-10". The factory, knowing at the time, that Black Powder was really King, offered the .32 Winchster Special with a twist rate of 1-12". This lessened fouling accumulation. The case is identical to the .30 WCF and chamber sealing was fine. There weren't a lot of B/P lube recipes running around back then so 50/50 was mostly used.

Recently, with another Pard's rifle, we worked up a 170 grain load with 30 grains of FFFg. We used my mixture of 3 pounds Crisco and 2 toilet seals (preferably unused), filled the grease grooves and loaded. Well, accuracy started falling off after 15 shots. Cause? Ran out of lube. We then went the same loading route and then melted down the lube and dipped the loaded rounds into the melted lube up to the case mouth.

Result? Accuracy in the 2 1/2 inch range for 20 shot group (real test of a B/P lube), a wet lube star burst at the muzzle and we went 100 shots without cleanin before the accuracy started to fall off.

Can't ask for more than this, especially since we were going lube only with no assist from a blow tube.

[Tangle Eye]

I think I got my question answered.  I wanted to go to the .30-30 as the first smokeless round that signaled the end of the black powder rule (at least in some people's opinion to me Holy Black STILL rules and always will!!).  Anyway - its sort of an experiment at this point. I hope to work on it a bunch next week and get a go/no-go on the rifle.  I tell you, working up a smokeless load reminds me why I went to BP in the first place: You got a gazillion powder choices and nobody's data agrees with anybody elses - Yahoo :-(.

Outa have some fun next week messing with it though. It might turn out to be a 200 - 300 yard long range cowboy rifle. Or maybe not - we'll see.

[Griff]

Tangle Eye, If'n ya wanted a good smokeless load in the beginning, ya shoulda said so:  I don't believe you'll find a more accurate load than 150GCFN in front of 27.5 grs. of RE7.  I'm casting the bullets from a Saeco mould that's about 30 years old, couldn't tell you the model number, but I'll bet it's still on Saeco's list.
That combo in my bull-barrelled '94 rifle yields sub 1" groups at 100yds, 1-1/2" groups at 200yds. still within 6" at 400yds.  They're cooking out the muzzle right @ 2200fps.
However, the key to good groups with BP is lube and twist rate.  You said your rifle is a Single Shot?  What twist rate did you get in the barrel?  If it's 1 in 12 or 1 in 14, I'd be willing to try 'er, heck whaddya got to loose, a few grains of powder, some lead, and a day at the range?  Mighty high prices to pay for a lil KNOWLEDGE!

[Tangle Eye]

Hey Griff - I may try that load.  Right now I'm working with a Lyman bullet and the powders I have in mind to test are H4198, IMR4064, IMR4895, and Unique. I use 8 grains of Unique and a 150 grain cast bullet (store bought  - who knows what mould) in my '94 to get pretty good accuracy. The rifle I'm playing with now is a Uberti copy of a Winchester Low Wall. The twist rate is 1 in 10 so its made for smokeless. I'm off work next week and expect to spend time getting a load worked up for this one.

[Bad Flynch]

Some of these things have been mentioned before, so credit for them is given up front. Here are some thoughts.

Yes the .30-30 was indeed never loaded at the factory with black powder. However, the smokeless powder of the day was far from the stuff we now shoot and was more like bulk-for-bulk powder, but not quite, either. I suspect that the .30-30/.32WCF stuff that has been mentioned is pretty much right on, too.

This is indirect, but might help. The mention of bottleneck cases being inferior with black powder has quite a bit of merit. Although the .32-40 and the .44-40 shoot well with black, they have exceptionally thin case walls and seal well. My experience with a .40-90 Sharps Bottleneck is that the bottlenecked case gets fouled rather badly and loading gets difficult. That seems to have been the factor that drove the old manufacturers to develop the same cartridges with a straight walled configuration: hence the .40-90SBN---->.40-90Straight later on.

Good grease cookies, of proper consistency, do not foul the powder to any appreciable extent.  A good design when using grease cookies is to put a wad of thin paper, like wax paper or newspaper, on either side of the grease cooke--one on top and one on the bottom. That keeps it from sticking to the bullet and from contaminating the powder. However, a friend has shot naked  cookies in a .32 H&R Magnum revolver, even in HB bullets, for years with no apparent ill effects.

Hope that is a help.

I have seen this topic mentioned on the Black Powder list (BP-L@yahoogroups.com) now and then, but nobody keeps it up.

Hope that helps

[john boy]

I know that somewheres someone said they tried 777 in a .30-30.  ...

Capt, that be me.   Used LRNFPGC 165 grainers with 40gr vol of H777 -FFg.  Was approved personally by Phil Hodgdon after several emails.  They shot 3" groups from rest with open sights out of a Winchester Centennial 66 at a 100 yards.  Have to use a soft BP lube with it otherwise the stuff stiffens up the action.

Sorry to say, didn't run the recipe through the Chrony, so don't know the fps but sure did give a nice 'Bark' when the trigger was pulled.

Haven't made up a batch since that test, but now that you have reminded me ...