Major feeding problem with new Armi-Sport Spencer

[major]

All
When dealing with large companies always remember this. "Never take a no from someone that has no authority to give you a yes".
I would keep going up the corporat ladder untill I got satisfaction.  Always ask for there supervisor until you get satisfaction.
Terry

[Abilene]

I was at Cimarron today and asked Chris about this.  If the gun was not fired nor damaged, Cimarron generally will replace it with another gun, if they have it in stock.  Chris said they did not have any more of this particular model in stock.  All Armi-Sport (Chiappa) products that have problems/defects are sent to Armi-Sport for repair.  When a customer calls with an Armi-Sport problem, they are instructed to send the gun to Armi-Sport.  Regarding the repair policy reproduced by Two Flints, note that it says that you should call Hill Country Precision Gunsmithing for shipping address and instructions.  If you had called him instead of calling Cimarron, he would have told you the same thing, that is to ship the gun to Armi-Sport for repair.  Sometimes people don't call, they just send their gun back to Cimarron.  If it is an Armi-Sport, Cimarron just has to send it to Armi-Sport which does nothing but waste time.  I'm not sure why you are saying that Cimarron is leaving you to take care of the problem yourself.  I won't go into the email you sent, but Chris said he answered it as nicely as he could.  That is all I know of this issue.

[PJ Hardtack]

You guys are scaring the hell out of me with these tales of feeding problems with repro Spencers !!! 
I've been considering ordering one imported by Taylor's as I am delighted with the fit, finish and quality of a consecutive pair of Remingtom '63 Taylor's Uberti-made 44-40s I just acquired.

Anyone with knowledge and/or experience with the Taylor's import repro Spencers? I have twice emailed Taylor's for info on the 44-40s and received immediate, courteous responses. I hear their service attitude is great.

[JimBob]

LOL PJ,I bought one of the repro Spencers,haven't loaded or shot it yet,then found this site and started reading.Scared heck out of me too after shelling out the money for a rifle and waiting a good bit to get it.Lots of good information in the stickies at the top on overcoming the problems,just takes some time to read it all and digest it.They do attract attention when you drag one out of the case when your in a crowd of "black gun" people.

[PvtGreg]

Abilene,

Here are the main points from my admittedly now biased viewpoint:

1) The gun did not work - it was purchased new.
2) We called Cimarron twice all we got was the Armi-Sport address.  At that point they could have mentioned Hill Country Precision Gun Smithing, I would have done so if my oversight was pointed out.  Certainly my bad for missing it.  Perhaps their bad for not mentioning it?  Please judge for yourselves.

Here's the email and Chris' response - please notice Chris mentions in his email that "What I wish would have happened for you and your dealer, is for the gun to come here to be looked at by us."  I wish I had been asked to do so it would have at least made me feel that Cimarron wanted to make this right, but I was told explicitly to send it to Armi-Sport.  Also if Chris would have offered to follow up with Armi-Sport I would have considered this a fair attempt to make this right as well.

Here's are the emails.  Mine first and Chris' response.  I'm also masking the email addresses & names, for I consider them private.  Please judge for yourselves if you feel my email was inappropriate.  I still stand by my "anti-Cimarron evangelist" stance.  Telling people your bad experiences with a vendor just might save someone some of their hard earned money.

Thanks Guys I appreciate you all and this forum,

Pvt Greg

-----------My Email-----------------------------------------------------------

From: xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 10:32 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: FW: Poor customer service received from your company
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:53 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: Poor customer service received from your company

To Whom It May Concern,

On Jan 22d of this year I picked up a 56-50 Spencer that I purchased from my local gun dealer, who in turn ordered it from Cimarron, which he then received on the 20th.  I picked it up with a great deal of excitement but that excitement was short lived when I discovered none of the rounds I had purchased from Buffalo Arms designed specifically fro the ArmiSport 56-50 Spencer would cycle out of the magazine.  Thinking the the issue was cartridge length I attempted a number of reloads (using brass for the ArmiSport  as well as the proper loading dies from Lyman) of various lengths.  None of them would work either.  I then properly concluded that the gun was defective and returned it to my dealer the same day.  I wasn't really upset - guns sometimes have issues from the manufacturer. 

However on the 24th my dealer called Cimarron in an attempt to return the weapon for an exchange.  The people at Cimarron he talked to refused to accept it and when reminded of your own stated return policy they simply stated we had to deal with ArmiSport provided a phone number and hung up.

Given no other choice I decided to send the weapon to ArmiSport, where it is today.  Needless to say I am very disappointed that your company chose to deal with the issue in the manner I have outlined.

My plan is to deal with ArmiSport given I have been given no choice by your company.

However I have now become an anti-Cimarron evangelist and have personally talked two cowboy shooters from purchasing any arms from your company and guided them to purchase from other distributors.  Every opportunity I have had I have posted my experience on the Cascity.com forum and am preparing a letter to the Cowboy Chronicle outlining your poor customer service and what I consider blatant dishonesty.  I will look for other opportunities to steer potential customers and post my experience on other forums.

Let me be clear - I don't blame Cimarron that the gun is defective - that happens.  I blame you for your poor customer service and dishonesty.

Below are two links from Cascity backing up my actions.  I will also copy Cimarron on my letter to the Chronicle.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36200.0.html

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36392.0.html

This is the link to your stated return policy: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Ret-RepairPolicy.htm

Sincerely - Greg XXXXXXXXX

-----------------------------Chris' Reply-------------------------------------------------------


Greg,
I am sad to hear this story, and I wish you had the name of who was on the other end of this conversation. Normally, returns and repairs are my job. Given the dates you are stating, I was at a distributor show and not here at Cimarron. The 56-50 Spencer is probably the most error free Spencer we sell. While the Spencer is very finicky as to cartridge length, it is rare I see one that does not work correctly.
What I wish would have happened for you and your dealer, is for the gun to come here to be looked at by us. The next step would be for it to go to Armi Sport/ Chiappa in Dayton if it had a problem.
We certainly do our best to please everyone, and I strive to deliver the customer service that I want when I am buying products. I won't make excuses for anyone else here, as I do not know who it was or the circumstances.


Thank you,
XXXXXXXX
Operations Manager-Assistant Vice President
Life Member- NRA, SASS
Cimarron F A Co
Phone-XXXXXXXXXX
Fax-XXXXXXXXXXX
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com
"No Higher Standards"

[Abilene]

Pard,

I don't know where you are coming up with blatant dishonesty accusations.  As I told you before, the local gunsmith who does Cimarron repairs DOES NOT WORK on Armi-Sport guns.  Armi-Sport guns go to Armi-Sport to be repaired.  That is Cimarron policy.  That is their agreement with Armi-Sport.  

Did you notice that Chris said the gun would have been sent from Cimarron to Armi-Sport if they determined that there was a problem?   Sometimes Cimarron would like to see the gun first because a lot of guns that are thought by their new owners to be defective are in fact fine (user error).  

Whether it needs to be sent to Cimarron first or not is the decision of the person handling the warranty call. Plus as I said before they might decide to simply replace the gun if it has not been shot and if there was another available (there was not).  

But I believe you are pretty sure yours has a problem.  Given your description of the problem occurring with factory ammo as well as reloads, I would likely have told you the same thing.  Sending it straight to Armi-Sport instead of via Cimarron is just saving you some time.  

Would you not have bought the gun if you had known that it would need to be sent to Armi-Sport for any possible warranty work?  And would you not agree that Armi-Sport is probably the best source for being able to repair their own guns?

[Two Flints]

Hi Abilene,

You seem to be very knowledgeable of Cimarron's stated Return and Repair Policy so curiosity begs the question:  What does Cimarron actually do before the sale is made to insure that "Every firearm is thoroughly inspected for function and cosmetic blemish prior to shipment"?  

Regarding the latter, and from the many posts I've read on SSS, the cosmetics of the Spencer coming from Armi Sport have always been top notch and excellent for fit and finish.

So, how does Cimarron check Armi Sport Spencers for "function" prior to sale?  Ideally, the Armi Sport Spencer should be loaded with a "correct cartridge type", i.e., proper OAL, and the feeding mechanism thoroughly tested using those cartridges.  

If everything works/feeds OK, then the customer should be informed as to the correct cartridge to use. Unless I'm missing something it sure would eliminate many of the Spencer feeding issues that seem to crop up on a regular basis, as discussed here on SSS, see the SORI threads.

Thanks to all for responding to the OP, PVT Greg.  Further discussion is welcome.  But, let's keep it civil at all times.

Two Flints

[DJ]

Call me old-fashioned, but I would expect a gun to work right out of the box.  And on those rare, rare, rare occasions where one didn't, I would think the seller and manufacturer would be both astonished and falling all over themselves making it right.

--DJ

[PJ Hardtack]

I'm with DJ!

I expect ALL R&D problems/issues to be worked out by the maker/importer BEFORE a product hits the market. I don't want to go the fitting, smoothing, polishing that should have been done at the factory.
If I get guns like that, and the maker won't back them up, next time I buy from another maker/importer.

[Abilene]

Two Flints,
The shipping person who packs the gun gives it a visual inspection and works the action.  As far as I know, the only guns that have dummy rounds loaded and worked through them are the '92's as they have had issues in the past.  Most guns do not have that type of issue.  The Spencer, particularly in 56-50, has been very reliable.

[Herbert]

Two Flints,
The shipping person who packs the gun gives it a visual inspection and works the action.  As far as I know, the only guns that have dummy rounds loaded and worked through them are the '92's as they have had issues in the past.  Most guns do not have that type of issue.  The Spencer, particularly in 56-50, has been very reliable.

From my experience and many posts by others on this forum, I will have to disagree with the 56-50 Armi Sports Spencer being very reliable.  Quality control from the factory is the problem. This ranges from rifles being sold with missing parts (very unacceptable) to badly machined and out of spec parts (fine for a kit gun but not for an expensive replica). 

All this could be easily fixed by Armi Sports very easily and they would have a very good product, but they deny any complaints from customers, which are many and valid, a sure way to get a bad name and go down the drain.

[John Smith]

I've been shooting a "Taylors" Spencer in 56-50 for almost 3 years.  I've never had a problem with it.

[Herbert]

I've been shooting a "Taylors" Spencer in 56-50 for almost 3 years.  I've never had a problem with it.

You are a very lucky man and also easily pleased.  I was not so lucky.  My rifle came missing the magazine catch, the for-stock bands were too large for the stock, it would not feed properly because the cam was out of spec, the trigger pull was 18 LBs, screws coming loose causing mis- fires  These are problems that can be fix easily, and with very good results, and little time. But I can not do any thing about the twist rate in the barrel without it costing more money. And I am far from alone on these isues and others that show up.

[Seamus]

What a sad tale.  My .45LC Spencer also would not feed when it arrived.  I returned it to Chiappa & they replaced the magazine tube assembly which was defective.  Unfortunately I did not bother to test fire it by single loading before I returned it & when it came back it fed fine but then refused to fire.  After another trip back to Dayton, OH it fed & fired OK but failed to extract consistently.  My gunsmith has now had it for months trying to cure this problem he believes is inherent to the small rim on the .45LC.  Oh, did I tell you that when I first brought it to him he discovered a crack in the breach!  That meant a third trip back to Chiappa who replaced the barrel/breach.  Maybe in a week or so I will finally have it back.  I can only hope that Pvt. Gregg's feed problem can be fixed as easily as mine was & without all the other problems I have experienced.  GOOD LUCK!

Seamus

[Fox Creek Kid]

The catch is that Armisport is the ONLY game in town unless you want to shell out 5K for a perfect Romano Spencer or buy an original. I see this issue as one of failure of communication. It does not matter to me who is to blame as that will not get your gun fixed. Send the gun to Taylor's/Armisport and give them a chance to make it right.  

[tommy4toes]

I too had major feeding problems with my Spencer 56-50, but after reading all the posts here - I figured it out. Removed the breech block, and put a healthy 1/8" radius on the front edge that was cutting into the bullets nose. You see, the Spencer allows the first cartridge to move ahead of the breech block face under spring pressure, then pushes the second cartridge slighty back into the magazine as it is rotated into battery. Problem solved - re-blued the breech block and no problems since. I use the RCBS 350gr bullet and Lyman dies.

Granted, you shouldn't have to do this to a new gun - but it does solve the issue.

My two cents.

Tommy

[PvtGreg]

Hi All,

This issue has been resolved - here's a link to what had to be done.  This is from a separate post to the forum:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,38682.0.html

Thanks to you all.

Greg