Major feeding problem with new Armi-Sport Spencer

[PvtGreg]

Hi All,

I just bought an armi-sport spencer in 56-50 and I'm having major feeding issues with it.  As in it will not feed at all.  I've tried cartridge lengths of 1.55" down to .8 (basically the bullet and cartridge with no powder) and it will not feed.  

I've noticed a mark where I assume the upper block hits the cartridge when I try to work the lever, which gets closer to the rim as the length goes down.

Any advice?  Otherwise I have to send it back, which I would hate to do.

Thanks - PvtGreg

[Crossdrawnj]

I had the same problem with mine and my sons Spencer ( from Taylor's). A friend of mine, who has rebuilt several original Spencer's, believes it is the tension on the cartridge keeper: the spring is too weak. We have only been using blanks (CW reenacting) and haven't used live ammo-yet. Try working the lever and placing a little pressure on the csartridge keeper with your finger and see what happens.

Retsgt.

[PvtGreg]

Thanks for the advice Crossdraw, but no joy.  Its almost like the round doesn't move up far enough, or the perhaps the lever doesn't work far enough on the down stroke.

[DJ]

OAL of 1.55 seems pretty short, and I don't see how a 0.8 could possibly work.  The Spencer requires cartridges within a certain range--not too long and not too short.  Also, if using measurements of original cartridges, remember that because of the flat point of a modern centerfire bullet, a modern cartridge will either be a little shorter or will have the ogive of the bullet further forward than an original.  In my experience, getting the most reliable feeding involves lots of trial and error using cartridges of different lengths.  I recommend doing that workup with dummies.

[PvtGreg]

Thanks DJ,

1.55 works very well in my now 12 year old Romano Carbine so that's the length I tried with the armi-sport.  I have this afternoon also tried 1.62 & 1.6 and with no joy.  The .8 was out of desperation - the dent marks in the cartridges were about .8 from tip back toward the rim.

Points of clarification from my original post:

-Its not that the feed isn't smooth - nothing at all feeds.

-I'm using brass for the Armi-sport & out of desperation have tried regular 56-50 (cut down 50-70s) just to see if I could feed anything out of the magazine.

I'm pretty convinced its the gun and have returned it to the store to get Cimmeron on it, but I'm now curious if anyone else has had this problem with the Armi-sport.

Thanks all

[DJ]

If the first round won't even feed into the action at all, then it sounds like magazine spring weakness or obstruction (burr?) in the mag tube or at the juncture of tube and action, or maybe something on the block that is making the cartridge hang up.  That should be discoverable with some detective work. 

[PvtGreg]

I thought of the spring and tried my Romano spring with no luck.

I think your other guesses are dead on - I'm betting on the top block being out of spec - it looks like its not rotating far enough on the down stroke and upper block is tight down against the lower block which I'm guessing stops it from going far enough down.  My Romano has some give between the upper and lower block even when all the way down.

I'll post more when Cimmeron gets on it.

Thanks all.

[DJ]

Good luck, and we'll be interested to hear how it comes out.

--DJ

[Preston County Rider]

PvtGreg - for what it is worth, I had the same problem with my 45 Sch Spencer when it first arrived - would not feed my handloads. I called Cimmaron and spoke to their tech folks. They gave me Ron Norton's name and number as the Armi-sport importer and told me to contact him directly. I did and send my carbine to him. He reportedly cleaned and polished all the parts and sent it back. The gun worked "better" at first but over time loosened up enough to be practical.

Let me explain "practical" - when I got the gun back, it did not cycle smoothly with my loads - Starline brass/452 Goex bullets/30g FFg/OAL 1.36" - but it did cycle. It took numerous times at the range and at my local CAS events to feel comfortable with the gun and trust that it would smooth out. It now cycles smooth enough so that I can enjoy shooting it. But it took time and a very sharp, firm lever stroke!

[Two Flints]

Pvt Greg,

My suggestion would be to return the Spencer to the dealer - if it was purchased NEW - and not get involved with sending it out to anyone else for a "look see".  SSS members who have sent their Spencers to other individuals have had long waits to deal with and the results have not been satisfactory.

I'm tredding lightly here as to not offend anyone, but, if your Spencer won't feed AT ALL then send it back and maybe try another.

If it was purchased as a "NEW" Spencer and it did not shoot correctly "out of the box"  then the dealer should take it back and issue a full refund or replace it with another "NEW* Spencer.

Just my opinion.

Two Flints

[.56/50 Iron]

Hello Pvt Greg!
    I'm sorry I did not catch up on this sooner as I had exactly the same problem as you are experiencing. In addition, my barrel also unscrewed, but that was just the frosting on the cookie! I think Two Flints can help you find my posts on the problem I had with mine. They went from sending it in to Norton with hope, down to despair and demanding that he send my carbine back to me with the barrel tightened and sealed. At the point the barrel unscrewed, I was not real aware that there was a feeding problem, but when it came back I had exactly the same problem as you have. I am using a slug that is very much like the original bullet, but more flat nosed. I was using soft lead for the slug. When that did not work, I studied the inner workings of the Spencer action using patent drawings. I mean I studied them, read everything I could find and noted a lot about cartridge length. Studied actual size photos of original cartridges and got additional information from cartridge collectors. I ended up using a length that worked about once in ten... I then switched to wheel weight metal for the slugs and my success rate went to about one out of every three from the tube... That dang marking was still on the bullet but not as deep... My God, the brain then started to work! I have lots of linotype metal. Very hard stuff. Cast some out of linotype, and using the length I settled on when I realized that overall length was not the main culprit, loaded some up. Let me back up for a moment. You might find that your magazine will only hold about 5 rounds when fully loaded. This is due to some mickey mouse spacer rod that is screwed into the mag follower. Take your tube apart and remove this spacer. I was so disgusted at this point, I almost mailed the part to Italy! Now, back to bullet metal. The rounds I made up with linotype metal worked perfectly. Any othe problems feel free to contact me.

[.56/50 Iron]

Me again! I must have run out of room and so I will finish my reply up here. I had no luck at all with Norton at the repair service. I finally cured the situation for me by using harder slugs. I had also lightly rounded the edges of the part of the block that was making the mark. This helped but did not cure the situation. I also found that my most accurate shooting groups came from using Trail Boss smokeless powder. Reasonable accuracy with black powder, but not the most consistent. I will tell you about this if you want to send me a note off-list. (thorsrig@cheqnet.net). I intended my Spencer to be used for deer hunting and for that a real hard slug is not the best. I thus will use a soft lead slug that I will put manually into the chamber. The tube will be loaded with linotype slugs. Point of impact is about the same at 75/100 yards.  You are not alone with a prblem Spencer carbine. Mine is very smooth now after about 500 rounds, many  with linotype bullets.
Good Luck
56/50 Iron

[PvtGreg]

Thanks Gents - As two Flints suggested - I have returned it to the dealer and will let him work it out.  It was a brand new gun so I figure I'm due a replacement that works.  I got spoiled by my Romano Spencer and wishI had the scratch to buy one from him.  Larry makes some outstanding guns.

Once I get somethings that actually cycles I look forward to working out a load to use!

Thanks again.

[PvtGreg]

FYI - more info:

My Romano is a carbine with the blade extractor.  I wanted a rifle that I could use for SASS and thus the Armi-sport mainly for the lane extractor since I'll be reloading three on the clock through the top.

[PvtGreg]

Well my dealer just called Cimaron.  Their take is its my problem not theirs!  I guess I didn't pay them enough for a working gun.

I've always heard Cimaron was poor in the customer service department, but this beggars the imagination.

Anyone have a contact there that might be interested in doing whats right?

[Two Flints]

PvtGreg,

I sent you an Email.  Please respond to it.

Who is your dealer?  Are you sure he contacted Cimarron?  Who did the dealer speak to at Cimarron, need to know that, too!

Didn't you get a user manual?  Doesn't it indicate a guarantee of some sort?

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Thanks for the advice Crossdraw, but no joy.  Its almost like the round doesn't move up far enough, or the perhaps the lever doesn't work far enough on the down stroke.

If it is not feeding at all,I think you are right ,it is not opening far enough,IF you can not get any satisfaction from your dealer I sugest you remove the triger plate and polish the block stop,also look at the top and botom block and see if any thing is stoping them coming together,these Spencers are a world away from a Romano Spencer in fit and finish and require a lot of finishing work to make them feed as well,I also sugest you measure the hight of the Ramono Spencers cam and adjust your Armi Sports one to the same level and shape or as close as you can

[Fox Creek Kid]

Two suggestions:

No. 1   There is man who posts on CAS City who works part time for Cimarron. He goes by "Abilene" here on CAS City. PM him as he is a standup fella.

No. 2    I know Larry Romano as he did work for me once and is a great guy. If Cimarron won't help you then call Larry as I am sure that he can diagnose it & fix it lickety split. 

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

My concern is that, according to Pvt Greg, Cimarron told Pvt Greg's dealer to send the Spencer Carbine back to Armi Sport for repair

Read the Cimarron Repair & Return Policy, which appears on their web site.  See the text defined by the red arrows that apply in this situation, I would think.  Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Howdy – folks. To follow up with the earlier post.

To recap:

I purchased a Spencer rifle in 56-50 from a cowboy buddy of mine who's just started a gun store. He ordered it from Cimaron. I received it and discovered regardless of the length of the cartridge I tried the weapon would not cycle a round out of the magazine. I returned it the same day (Saturday 1-22).

The next Monday my friend called Cimaron to get the issue dealt with. All that Cimaron would do is tell him to send the gun to Armi-Sport for repair. They refused to accept it back. When my friend mentioned Cimaron's return policy they refused to honor it.

Now this is a very condensed version of two conversations that he had with them and I can confirm what happened.

My friend has sent it on to Armi-Sport at an address provided by them (Dayton Ohio BTW) and we are waiting on a response.

Given my experience, I would STRONGLY recommend that you do not buy from Cimaron.

I have no problem with Armi-Sport. Guns will have problems & Armi-Sport is honoring their warranty.

Cimaron however has acted in VERY bad faith. As I said in an earlier post I feel like I didn't pay them enough for them to care.

Regards to all.  Thanks for all the posts on this subject.  I will let you know when I get the weapon back to complete out the thread.

PvtGreg