Provenance for Griswold and Gunnison Revolver

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I'm looking for documentation of any Griswold and Gunnison revolver in "Frontier" use in North America during the NCOWS period of 1865-1899. There were 3600-3700 produced, so surely at least one made the trek westward or returned to Texas with their owner. Any help would be deeply appreciated.

[Major 2]

you might start here

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1585p1.htm

[Patrick Henry Brown]

you might start here

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1585p1.htm

Yeah, I had that one already. Unfortunately, nothing there confirms a "documented use on the Frontier" during the 1865-1899 period.

[Books OToole]

you might start here

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1585p1.htm

The following quote from the above site leads me to believe that the pistol described was one that was not issued and spent its entire existance in storage or someone's collection.

"Depicted is g&g 1st Model serial #1084 complete in all respects.  The finest I have ever had.  Little use and no abuse."

The few (if any) that went through the war will most likely look like they went through a war.  They may have even been "used up" and discarded.

This pistol copy is kind of like Yellowstone Kelly's Henry carbine.  If and when we find documentation for a G & G, it is probably going to be a great story.

Keep digging guys.

Books

[Cliff Fendley]

The few (if any) that went through the war will most likely look like they went through a war.  They may have even been "used up" and discarded.

This pistol copy is kind of like Yellowstone Kelly's Henry carbine.  If and when we find documentation for a G & G, it is probably going to be a great story.

Keep digging guys.

Books

I'm afraid that may make documentation hard to find for any that were carried west would have been discarded when it broke. I'm not sure if parts would have been available or if anyone could have repaired it. Still it seems to me very likely even a few ole southern boys could have carried one west after the war and used it until something better came along.

Keep digging, I think the G&G should be allowed, it just seems too likely to me at least one made it west but it's probably buried somewhere in the dirt.

Preacher, have you gotten yours yet? Let us know how it looks.

[St. George]

By War's end, it was highly likely that any Griswold & Gunnison's had been swapped out for a Colt or Remington, since the South never had a ready supply of Ordnance spares, and the revolvers were in such limited production.

The South routinely used captured Federal supplies, and during the early years, those supplies were readily available.

Not so much so, later on, when the Federal forces became the killing machine that they would, and the South had their backs up against it.

Griswold & Gunnison  - looking so much like a Colt in an era when 'Colt' was synonymous with 'revolver' - likely wouldn't've been so referred to, since the manufacturers weren't all 'that' important when writing an account or diary.

Did they migrate West?

Sure - but if they went through a war, they'd've been on the 'used-up' side of things and anyone headed West would be looking for something more reliable, and more reliable stuff was readily available.

'Provenance' is going to be found in museum collections traced to specific individuals and perhaps in diaries of early settlers.

Talk to local county historical societies - sometimes, those volunteers are a wealth of information.

Good Luck.

Sometimes, the search for information is more than half the fun.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

The ONLY reference I have read of by anyone using a Confederate made revolver post War is that of a Dance being used by Wild Bill Longley I believe.

[rebsr52339]

Wasn't Geronimo photographed, sitting, with a Dance revolver once? Seems I saw that photo somewhere. I know of the one he is holding what looks like a Springfield carbine.

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Yes, Geronimo was photographed in three separate poses with a Dance revolver. IIRC, the date was around 1894 in Oklahoma.

While the Confederate revolvers mentioned may have been through battle conditions, so were a lot of Colts, Remingtons, Whitneys, etc. No doubt, as time transpired, many were quickly relegated to dresser drawers and such. But let's also remember that many CSA soldiers returned and/or migrated to Texas after the surrender in 1865, and Texas was still very much a frontier. Herein lies the rub though -- most of those folks were poor and of little notoriety. In all likelihood, they carried whatever they could scrounge, and often, that was a C&B. CSA officers were allowed to retain their sidearms after being paroled, and once again, most returned home destitute with greater needs than acquiring a new cartridge conversion. I would imagine that the period from 1865-1873 (or 1880) saw the vast majority of western settlers with C&B revolvers in their inventory, even if not their primary sidearm.

For example, I remember distinctly my grandfather telling me that as a boy in the early 1900's, he and his older brother routinely hunted small game with a Civil War Smoothbore musket that was a CSA return. I guess it wasn't turned in to the Federals when my ancestor surrendered (LOL). At any rate, they'd load it with BP bought at the local general store and use crumbled paper as both over-powder and over-shot wads. They didn't actually use shot though. He said they usually used pea gravel from the creek beds in that part of West Mississippi. Fact was, they couldn't afford modern shotshells and shotguns, and his father certainly wasn't going to turn two boys loose with his hunting guns.

No one can document the usage, except me, as a secondhand account. I don't even know the make or model of musket they used.m Why? Because they were not noteworthy enough to be documented. Therein, IMHO lies the problem with NCOWS "in documented use" stipulation.

[Texas John Ringo]

Hey Preacher-----as a side note I have a GRISWOLD & GUNNISON Revolver that I bought new in'75----------1975.
Shoots great, altho I haven't shot it in a looooooong time.
It was made by/for High Standard, they also had a LEECH & RIGDON that was made at the same time.

Just a lttle side note.

Hope to see you somewhere in the next month if the weather will co-operate.

Ringo

[Mogorilla]

This topic just brought an odd comment my late father made in 95 to my mind.  I had just made my first C&B revolver and was working on my first holster when he and mom visited.  Dad looked at my 44 Navy Colt (I was young and had no idea they weren't a real replica).  He commented that when he was a kid (born in 31), they had a box of old guns like these on the farm that the kids would play CowPersons and Native Indigenous Peoples with them.   My eyes popped out of my head and I asked where they went (I have my Grandfather's, (born in 1880) 32 rimfire Lower pistol circa 1863)  Dad said that Pop carried that little 32 through the 50s but the whole box of old percussion guns were turned over for the steel and brass for the War effort.   The brass never clicked in my tiny little brain until now.  I really hope that it was just backstrap and not a Griswold or Spiller and Burr.    I lost both him and mom the following two years (mom to cancer, dad to a broken heart) so I can't ask anyone as he was the youngest of 12.  I would think that was the destination for many antique pieces though. 

[Delmonico]

This topic just brought an odd comment my late father made in 95 to my mind.  I had just made my first C&B revolver and was working on my first holster when he and mom visited.  Dad looked at my 44 Navy Colt (I was young and had no idea they weren't a real replica).  He commented that when he was a kid (born in 31), they had a box of old guns like these on the farm that the kids would play CowPersons and Native Indigenous Peoples with them.   My eyes popped out of my head and I asked where they went (I have my Grandfather's, (born in 1880) 32 rimfire Lower pistol circa 1863)  Dad said that Pop carried that little 32 through the 50s but the whole box of old percussion guns were turned over for the steel and brass for the War effort.   The brass never clicked in my tiny little brain until now.  I really hope that it was just backstrap and not a Griswold or Spiller and Burr.    I lost both him and mom the following two years (mom to cancer, dad to a broken heart) so I can't ask anyone as he was the youngest of 12.  I would think that was the destination for many antique pieces though. 

My Mom's home town gave a large Parrott gun to the cause. 

[Drayton Calhoun]

A local Civil War museum has a pretty nice collection of pistols. Two in particular caught my attention. One was a 'Belgium Brevet Pistol made under Colt contract' an 1860 Army and one marked as an '1860 Army Colt' which was clearly a '51. Only problem is, it appears to be .44 cal. Due to the corrosion and all, it may have opened the muzzle up some, but still, that's an awful big difference. I will be trying to get over there to get some out-of-case photos if possible. They also have a Savage and an Adams.

[w.b. masterson]

All the CSA rifles weren't required to be turned in.  One rifle per squad was allowed to be kept to provide for hunting on the way home.

[minerotago]

I note with interest the comments about the likelihood of these pistols going west and if I may from afar assure you all that they did...now I have no doubt that all you guys know more about American history than I do despite my Grandfather being American and some American Indian i the family somewhere because I live in New Zealand and the closest Ihave got to the US of A is my American stamp collection, coin collection and gun collection - including Whitney Kennedy, Warners Carbine, Sharps and Spencer.

What I would like to point out to all you guys is that firearms found their way to all manner of places you could only imagine - it would seem logical to me that Griswold and Gunnison revolvers found their way West and indeed were not uncommon out west despite being made in limited numbers

The reason I say that is because guns far scarcer even found their way to New Zealand where they were used - a Maori chief here carried a flintlock Collier revolving rifle, another Maori chief carried a Spencer carbine and used it against the Europeans, a fishing boat carried a Whitney Kennedy to shoot sharks and I picked up a Coopers DA percussion revolver which had been carried by an American miner on the West Coast of New Zealand goldfields...so you can see that despite relatively few of some guns being made they still turn up all over the place...just recently in New Zealand an Internet auction site, NZs equivalent to Ebay saw a fellow selling a Warners patent carbine (6501 made by Greene Rifle Works and Warner himself so quite scarce) which he used to play cowboy and Indians with forty years and more ago.

Going by the experience seeing scarce arms here in NZ I have no doubt that these revolvers which are the topic of the thread found their way to many places.

[Trailrider]

Can't prove a G&G or L&R ever getting West just because you haven't dug one up or found one that can be documented?  How do you prove a negative?  How many people in the Old West documented their guns? Guns were tools, like an axe or a plow. Folks were too busy just livin' to worry about posterity much. Oh, a few did leave letters or references to their irons. One youngster, who hired on with the Army Quartermaster Dept. at Sidney Barracks, Nebraska, lived to file for a pension based on the fact that he "lived with the enlisted men and carried a carbine on several expeditions against the hostile Sioux." And he carved his name in the stock.  Another gun, a '51 Navy has no identifying marks or inscriptions.  It was sold by the users' grandson (or great grandson), who "didn't like what guns stood for", in spite of his ancester being a prominent Utah pioneer!  How many guns, OTOH, have been dug up a century after having been lost in the middle of nowhere?  How was it that two (2) MiG-21 jet fighters were buried in the sands of Iraq, and weren't discovered until two weeks after Baghdad airport was liberated...about a mile off the end of the runway?

Point is, with so few Confederate-made guns having been made, what are the probabilities of one being documented as having been West of the Misssissippi?  Pretty low. But that doesn't preclude their having been there.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well said, Trailrider.

How much provenance are you looking for, Mr. Brown?  Are you looking for proof so you can use it for NCOWS competition?  No problem ... it's already legal.

Are you doing it for your NCOWS Originals documentation? 

That may be a bit more of a challenge.  If you are simply trying to find the history of these weapons for your love of history and research, (see St. George's comment: "Sometimes, the search for information is more than half the fun.")  then you are on the right track.

It has been said that over the entire "Cattle Drives" timeframe there were probably only about 2,500 actual "Cowboys" in the true sense of the word.  My point is;  we're dealing with some pretty small numbers here.  Since few G&G guns existed, few would have made it out West.  And, as mentioned, they - and MANY more items like them - were simply thought of as tools and discarded as better became available.  Don't get me wrong ... I'm all for proving by study what is represented in our wonderful NCOWS personas, just don't become caught up in the details and specifics.  I can't prove the 2,500 figure, but I have heard it and have discussed it with many learned folks.  As a rule, folks don't document their daily lives.  And this creates many challenges 100 years later.  Think of it like this:  the last time you moved, did you inventory and list EVERYTHING you packed in that U-Haul?  Most of us regular folks didn't, either!  Expeditions, Military, Scientific study groups, and such may document or list all their tools and supplies, but not the average family.

One of our most "distinguished" Mongrel Historians here who likes to do serious research has pointed out this tidbit of information, and uses this as example of what CAN happen when someone says "you gotta PROVE what happened" rather than documenting everything.

          Try to find proof that women got pregnant back in Victorian times.  I think he has found one (count 'em ... ONE) photo of a pregnant woman in his very in-depth studies.

The mores of the Victorian era deemed this a subject that wasn't shown or talked about in polite society.  Oh yes, there are many proud parents holding their new-born children.  One can find baby furniture and other items in the catalogs of the day.  This is solid provenance that babies existed, but a woman pregnant ... well, it isn't talked about.  Probably had a lot to do with HOW a woman got pregnant - and that wasn't polite conversation.  (Even now!)  But we know that they DID get pregnant ... we just can't PROVE it very easily!


If you're trying to put together a persona for NCOWS or even for your own amazement and amusement, all you need to do begin your saga as a Gent  from the South - a veteran of the Confederacy.  It IS well known ... and provable ... that many former CSA soldiers went West or to Texas and took their weapons with them.

Please don't think I'm discouraging your studies and trying to gather provenance for your equipment.  I just don't want you ... or ANY other person reading this who may be trying to decide whether to give NCOWS a try to think that you must be perfectly period-correct and prove everything you have just to come shoot and have fun with us! 


Besides (in my own case ... and MANY others here) - as many of us have found, a lot of us wouldn't be alive "back then" with all our ailments, life's situations, and even age in our modern world vs. what was true "back in the day!"  I LIKE being able to take the medications I take that help keep me alive and still shooting!   I doubt I'd have made it past 45 years old back then!  More soldiers, and people in general died from wounds becoming infected than were killed by gunfire.  (That's why I picked 45.  )



You may have a different take on this.  I'm just bringing this up for discussion and thought.

[maarty]

Can't prove a G&G or L&R ever getting West just because you haven't dug one up or found one that can be documented?  How do you prove a negative?  How many people in the Old West documented their guns? Guns were tools, like an axe or a plow. Folks were too busy just livin' to worry about posterity much. Oh, a few did leave letters or references to their irons. One youngster, who hired on with the Army Quartermaster Dept. at Sidney Barracks, Nebraska, lived to file for a pension based on the fact that he "lived with the enlisted men and carried a carbine on several expeditions against the hostile Sioux." And he carved his name in the stock.  Another gun, a '51 Navy has no identifying marks or inscriptions.  It was sold by the users' grandson (or great grandson), who "didn't like what guns stood for", in spite of his ancester being a prominent Utah pioneer!  How many guns, OTOH, have been dug up a century after having been lost in the middle of nowhere?  How was it that two (2) MiG-21 jet fighters were buried in the sands of Iraq, and weren't discovered until two weeks after Baghdad airport was liberated...about a mile off the end of the runway?

Point is, with so few Confederate-made guns having been made, what are the probabilities of one being documented as having been West of the Misssissippi?  Pretty low. But that doesn't preclude their having been there.

Very well said.
Whenever anyone mentions absolute proof that xxxx make of gun was used I always wonder how many people took time to note down the make of axe they used to chop their fire wood or the make of saw they used to cut the timber for their home. You may read that they took the axe to the wood pile today or that they sharpened the saw and cut some boards to fix the barn but not the make of axe or saw, just like they may mention taking out their pistol and shooting a snake in the yard or a coyote in the hen house.

[Colt Fanning]

How much provenance are you looking for, Mr. Brown?  Are you looking for proof so you can use it for NCOWS competition?  No problem ... it's already legal.

Is it legal?  It isn't on the approved list is it?

Regards
Colt

[Major 2]

Nor is it on the dis approved list... there for in limbo....  we are talking NCOWS here correct ?

At the local level, I have no issue with it's use ( it's in the time period, 3000 or so were in service of the 3600 -3700
made)
The factory was burned November 22nd 1864.

Did they go West  ? , well I've seen no documantation,  but examples do exist so they did servive.
Common use ? ...that might be a stretch but not beyond reason.

So at the National Level , I'd like to see some documantation " if " it's to be listed on the actual approved list .