black powder measure

[Fox Creek Kid]

What's the big deal with the 1F?  2fg works in pretty much everything and meters better.

As mentioned, it shoots better & fouls less. I use it in a 50-90.

[Pettifogger]

That's why BP is so fun.  Everyone has their own experiences and techniques and as long as what you are doing works, GREAT.  Maybe its the high heat and low humidity here in the desert, but my experience with fg is a little different.  I use it for night shoots for more flame.  However, I have never found it to foul less and after four or five shots my barrels are HOT period.  Of course, the barrels are over 100 degrees just sitting in the cart.  2f and 3f have always burned cleaner for me, but then I know some people that live in high humidity areas with a lot of different experiences with BP.  One nice thing.  I've shot some matches back east in very high humidity and the guns needed almost immediate cleaning or in some cases they started to rust.  I've shot mine here in the desert and left them for several weeks and a little water and a patch down the barrel and they are clean. 

Mako, I've got an adapter to mount the Hornady on a Dillon but it leaves the measure a manual.  Is that adapter in your picture automatic?  Who made it?  I haven't used the Hornady in a long time but if that adapter converts the measure to auto use I might get one just to have on hand.

[Noz]

Fg is a rarity around here. I used some Skirmish in Fg for a night shoot at the Illinois State last year. Bad move! The flash was so big it ruined my night vision. Was fun tho.

[Flint]

Larson, the case activated adapter is a Hornady device.  i have one as well to mount on the Dillon toolheads I set up for bp.  I works similarly to the Dillon, but looks more Rube Goldberg.  But what's important is that it works.  In a 550, I set it in position 3, a bell die in position 2 and a crimp/seater in position 4.  The Hornady device does not bell as the Dillon does.  The order is a bit different, but just as fast, except you have to retrain your automatic reflexes.

[Mako]

Pettifogger,
The adapter is a standard Hornady product.  The part will fit on the standard measure or the BP measure.  You could even adapt it to a Lyman or RCBS if you wanted to drill a few holes.
This is the base powder through die it is $11 but it doesn't have the linkage attachment boss.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/050067.jpg

I just decided to buy 4 of the Lower assemblies which include the die.  Midway has them for $24, but I got mine on sale for less than $20.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/t-17795.jpg

You can get the mechanism from Midway for $55:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=591344
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/591344.jpg  http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/050073.jpg

The one thing it doesn't include is a Powder -Through Expander:
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/756501.jpg


If you get the Hornady versions you have to have one for each caliber and I think they flare the case too much.  
I use a universal expander from:
http://powderfunnels.com/products.html
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Lube%20and%20Loading/1Large.png

One size fits all.  You can just move it from die set to die set.  I just take it from the tooling plate set coming off of the Dillon and drop it into the top of the powder through die on the set I am switching to.  You could get one for each set if you wanted.  The flare is set by the die depth not the expander, so one will work for all.

I have a standard bench mount stand attached to a wooden base that I store the measure on and I can use it as a standalone if needed.

It's really easy to move from tooling plate to tooling plate.  It takes maybe takes all of 2 or 3 minutes to readjust the charge amount if you have a volume standard ready to go.

~Mako

[Pettifogger]

I have a really old Dillon 1050 (not the Super) and it has a universal expander just like the you in your picture.

[Mako]

Small world...I have experiencewith RL1050s as well (the proceeds of the winner's table).   The only real difference between an RL1050 and the Super 1050 is the height of the opening to allow longer rifle cases.  I think the older machine stroked better for short pistol cartridges.

I went to XL-650s because Dillon doesn't warranty the 1050s or the 1050 Supers like they do everything else, they consider those commercial machines.  Plus the 1050s take forever to change calibers on.

I saw the expander piece at the SHOT show about 5 years ago and bought a couple on sight because like you I had experience with the Dillon version.  That's actually where the guys that make them got the idea.  It took me forever to remember the name of the company that made them when someone asked me about them a couple of years ago.

I'm happy with them.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, I know the engineer that makes those bell/powder funnels. He made them as an aftermarket part for the Hornaday Lock 'n Load, which he says is the machine Dillon dreamt of making.    As I am thinking of upgrading from my Lee Turret I'd sure like to talk to someone who has a Hornaday LNL set up for BP (if they exist).

[Mako]

Kid,
It's been a while but I think I remember talking to two guys and you are right about the Hornady attitude.  But in talking to them it became apparent they were very intimate with the Dillon design features.  They were copying Dillon concepts and the expander was on a Dillon over 25 years ago.  They were supposed to be bringing out some additional products, are they any further along?  They had mentioned competing with UniqueTek which makes aftermarket tooling plates for Dillons and they had an idea for an integrated plate to add on to the Hornady.  I think they would allow the dies to stick down deeper and not use the quick bushings.  I'm not sure how they were mounting it.

You'll find there are three groups of people you run into in the progressive press camps.  Lee, Hornady and Dillon, there are others but they are the primaries.  The Lee people are always trying to say they are "good enough and cheaper"  The Hornady people claim "the same for less money" and the Big Blue group simply say the majority prefer Dillon. 

Hornady has finally matched Dillon's extended warranty, but I'll bet they still don't do a "no questions asked" warranty.  The Lock-N-Load system works well, but I like the Dillon tooling plate better because it keeps it all together.  You could save a few bucks if you shoot different bullets in the same caliber, you just change the seating and crimping dies out.  The long coil spring that wraps around the Hornady press is pretty neat if you remove shells a lot.

There are people who use them for BP, I know one.  After looking at his I realized I could just put the measure on the Dillon.  I like the Dillon measures better for smokeless pistol powders, but for crunchy BP the rotary drum works better.  It works just like a regular powder measure on the Hornady, it just has the different materials.

If you read many forums you will find all three camps, the biggest claim from the Hornady camp is the L-N-L is a five station press that is "as good as" a 650.  And then they claim it is less money, I haven't added it all up but with case feeders, powder check station, low primer warning buzzer etc. I think they may not be that much less.  Hronady now has a bullet feeder, but it only works with jacketed bullets.  There are several after market bullet feeders for Dillons.

A Hornady may fit your personality  , and it is a good press.  Mike has been too good to me for to many years for me to change now.
~Mako

[Pettifogger]

I bought my first Dillon in 1986 when they had a little shop by the Scottsdale Airport.  Now they have their own big showroom/warehouse, painted with blue trim so you can't miss it.  Since I live in Arizona it's really handy if anything goes wrong to drive over, talk to the guys, and leave with whatever parts I need no questions asked and free.

[Christopher Carson]

As I am thinking of upgrading from my Lee Turret I'd sure like to talk to someone who has a Hornaday LNL set up for BP (if they exist).

Seems to me Driftwood Johnson has a Hornady press, and he does BP... so you might ask him, in case he hasn't been following this thread.

-Chris

[Springfield Slim]

Wow. I just use the Dillon powder measure on my 550's, plastic and all, for all my BP cartridges. 

[Mako]

Wow. I just use the Dillon powder measure on my 550's, plastic and all, for all my BP cartridges. 

Uh Oh, then you're doomed.  Just the static from these posts is enough to set it off.

Nice knowing you, I guess I'd better hurry and get one last big order in for boolits.

Your Friend,
Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Did I hear somebody mention my name?

Yes, I load BP on one of my Hornady Lock & Load AP presses. I actually have two of them, one I keep set up for small pistol primers and the other I keep set up for large pistol primers. I only load BP in large calibers as of yet, so it is all done on my 'large primers' machine.

I won't go into the whys and wherefores of which machine is better, I will leave that up to others. I will say though that I have long suspected that part of the reason Dillons cost more is because you are paying for the 'No BS Return Policy' up front when you buy their machine. No business can afford to give away parts for free for long, the parts department has to carry it's own weight too. I'll bet the Dillon bean counters have a pretty good idea of just how much it is going to cost them for broken parts for every machine on average and that has been worked into the price. I haven't broken a part on one of my Hornadies for a while now, knock wood, but when I did break one of the pins that ratchets the shell plate around, my own dumb fault by the way, the only question I was asked was the SN on my press so they could track parts breakage. The new parts were sent out for free without even getting a lecture on not forcing things anymore.

I actually use the Lyman BP powder measure on my Hornady when I am loading BP. I have forgotten now why I did not go with the Hornady measure. I think it was the bit that Pettifogger was talking about with not being able to set charges between the stops. Anyhoo, here is a photo of one of my Hornadies with the BP measure in place. Sorry for the mess, looks like I forgot to get rid of that last package of cookies.



Here is a close up of the business end of the Lyman BP measure.




I take a bit of a Flintstones approach to loading BP on my Hornady. I'll bet my good friend Mako might not approve. I'm not interested in case feeders. I only like to load four boxes at a time anyway, my poor little brain gets overtaxed if I try to load more than that. I don't go in for case feeders. Instead, I line up my cases nice and neat in loading blocks of 50 each. If I am going to spray them with case lube it makes it that much easier. I pop my Big Lube bullets out of their 50 per styrofoam containers onto a block of wood, so my little brain doesn't get overtaxed. Fifty bullets for every 50 cases. I seldom load up more than 200 primers into a couple of primer tubes. Four boxes and I am ready for some TV.

So in keeping with the Flintstones approach, my Lyman BP measure is not operated by a linkage. I have to remember to flip the rotor for every case. Not too difficult. I also don't much care to be resetting the powder measure, so I keep several rotors set for my standard powder charges. I pop in the one I need according to the caliber I am loading. The photo above shows the rotor I use for 45 Colt and 44-40. I keep it set for about 2.2CC of powder. I use the same charge in both calibers.

I buy used Lyman Powder Measures at white elephant tables at my club and at shows. The internal parts from the Smokeless version are the same as the parts for the BP version. I usually pay very little for an old used Lyman measure. Sometimes I have to do a little bit of filing to get one to fit, but they usually pop right in. Here are the two rotors I use for 45 Schofield and 45-70. Notice the high tech labels. Hmm, looks like I spilled a little bit of powder the last time I was reloading.



Here is another photo of the rotor out of a Lyman measure. Even though there are some reference numbers on one of the slides, there are two other slides inside and there is no way to line them up for repeatability. At least I haven't figured out a way. So that is why I went the multiple rotors route.



Oh Boy, Mako is going to love this. This is the way I used to load BP on the press before I started using the Lyman BP measure. Don't laugh, it works. When the ram is all the way up the mouth of a case in that station will slide right into the bottom of my little green RCBS powder funnel. No, none spills. I used to keep my coffee mug full of BP next to the press and dip out the charge for each shell and dump it into the funnel when I raised the ram. No different really than flipping the rotor arm every time, and not much slower. I haven't started looking for another Lyman rotor yet for my 44 Russian loads, so this is the way I'll be loading them for a while. More of the Flintstones approach.



Here is the neat spring case retention dohicky that Hornady uses. Really simple to pop a case out if you want to check something like the weight of a powder charge or something. Be sure you have an extra on hand though, if it breaks, you're out of business until you replace it.



Here is the infamous Kick Out Wire that no longer comes on the new Hornady presses. This is the reason that it was always best to use Hornady brand dies in this press.




With the Kick Out Wire in place, some brands of dies had to be inserted so deep into the press body that they interfered with the Kick Out Wire.

Like this. An RCBS seating/crimp die interfering with the wire. The Flintstone approach is to simply flip the wire out of the way so there is no interference. This entails flipping each completed round into the finished rounds tray with a flick of the thumb.



The geometry of Hornady dies is such that they did not interfere with the wire.

Like this:



Hornady has completely redesigned the ejection system, so this should no longer be a problem with other brands of dies. Even when it was a problem, it was only a problem at station #5. None of the other stations.

Here is the reason I really like the Lock & Load system. Interchangeable collets. This is what makes it so quick to change calibers. Once you have the die set in position in its collet, you just pop it out and store it until it is needed next time. Cheaper than buying entire tool plates.



We are not supposed to talk about that unmentionable powder here, so just let me say that interchangeable powder inserts are available for the standard Hornady powder measure and leave it at that.

Using all the pop in Hornady stuff, and my interchangeable Lyman rotors, caliber changes are real quick. Allows me to catch up on all my favorite episodes of the Flintstones much quicker.

[rickk]

Driftwood, looks like you are suffering from the same disease as I am... the "too much stuff and not enough places to put it" disease. 

Well, I ordered a powder measure, largely based on statements made here. But, to keep this going, I'll keep my choice under wraps for a while. 

I am desperately trying to clean up my basement a bit atm so I have room to put it and use it when it arrives. It is bad when there is not enough room for one more thing anywhere, but that's the point I have gotten to. My reloading bench is 12 feet long, and 3 feet of it wraps around the corner of a wall, making the end and the other side for 3 feet usable as well.  Between presses and a small section dedicated to leather work it is maxed out. There are boxes of "stuff" everywhere. Plus, I am finding that if I free up any serious space by throwing out something big, that as soon as I turn my back my wife puts some of her stuff in the freed up space. Two years ago I cleaned up about 8 feet against a wall to build some shelves. Before I had a chance to build the shelves a bunch of plastic storage boxes mysteriously appeared. Does anyone need a treadmill? Low mileage, mostly used as a coat rack. If I can get rid of that and keep control of the space long enough, my leather supplies will have some shelves to live in.

Sucks that I ordered the powder measure from Cabela's, because they had the best price I could find at the time, only to get an "It's your birthday, get 10% off" email  from Midway about 15 seconds after I clicked the "submit order" button" on Cabela's web site. 

I think I got a discount coupon emailed to me from Ballistic Products a few weeks ago within a minute of placing an order from them.

I guess one has to get used to that and just live with the luck of the draw.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thanks Driftwood. Great photos. It seems as if Dillon owners are cursed once they try a LNL and secretly whimper with envy!!    Dillon is legendary, but one cannot help but wonder that LNL owners, who formerly owned a Dillon and the engineer types who keep touting the LNL over Dillon, may be onto something. 

[Pettifogger]

I shoot a lot and I'm getting lazy (tired?) as time goes by.  Here's the old 650 set up to drop the powder and the grits automatically.  Just need to set the bullet and keep pulling the handle.  Actually this set-up was for a couple of Norwegians that are coming to Winter Range.  They wanted to shoot .45 Colt in their rifles and pistols, but didn't want full charges.  Cranked out a bushel basket of ammo for them.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Actually this set-up was for a couple of Norwegians that are coming to Winter Range.  They wanted to shoot .45 Colt in their rifles and pistols, but didn't want full charges...

Well that does it!! When even the Norwegians turn "gamer" what's next? 

[Mako]

Well that does it!! When even the Norwegians turn "gamer" what's next?  

Don't you remember!!!? He tipped his hand before this...

Remember this photo?

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1000664.jpg

GAS SHIELDS!!!

A gamemeister no doubt... and he admits using ROAs!!!  And APP at matches...

What's next?  Recoil pads?

[Pettifogger]

Wanna see my gamer ROAs?