Brass backstrap & triggerguard for Richards Transition

[Newt]

I want to replace the steel backstrap & triggerguard on my Richards Transition with brass.  I ordered a brass backstrap & triggerguard from cimarron last week.  They came today and they are the wrong size  .  Does anyone know what revolver in the Cimarron line-up will work.  I was told by I think it was Chris in parts to order the Open Top Navy brass backstrap & triggerguard, but that's not right.
Thanks,
Newt

[Mako]

Newt.
You need parts for an Army model.  Plus if you want to be "authentic" you only need the trigger guards.  The base pistol for the original Richards Type IIs is the 1860 Army model.

This is an original Richards Type II (Uberti was calling them "Transition" Models), this is what they should look like:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Colt%20Conversions/pix351893687.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Colt%20Conversions/pix351893609.jpg

Just order a standard 1860 Brass Trigger Guard.

Why do you want a brass back strap?

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako you're right.....99% of the time re RM conversions. What I mean is there are exceptions, albeit rare. I think Colt workers reached in a bin and used what was there. Just when a fella thinks he has a cardinal rule with Colts up pops an exception. However, like you I am curious why Newt wants brass as well. 

[Newt]

Thanks Mako and Fox Creek Kid.  Guess I just like brass.  As you can tell I'm new to the hobby.  I didn't realize that the back strap wasn't brass.  Guess I'll just replace the trigger guard and save a little money.  Mako, is that a picture of your revolver?  If so, that's nice!!
Thanks,
Newt

[Newt]

Mako,
I was just looking at the parts list for the 1860 Army and it shows a Civilian option which has a brass back strap.   So can't you be original and have either way?
Thanks,
Newt

[Coffinmaker]

If you want the "all brass" look, you can order the complete back strap & trigger guard for an 1860.  I'd order them from VTI Gunparts.  Last time I ordered grip frames there were no 1860 brass parts in stock but that was a while ago.

Coffinmaker

PS: As long as you like it, doesn't have to be "authentic."

[Newt]

Coffinmaker,
Thanks for the information.  I already talked to Chris at Cimarron parts and reordered the right parts.  Looks like I could have saved a little getting them from VTI  Darn!!
Thanks,
Newt

[Newt]

I received the brass trigger guard I ordered from Cimarron a couple days ago and got it installed today.  It required a little filing to get a nice fit, but didn't go to bad.

[Mako]

Hey Newt,
Looks nice, just the way they should.  The ones I have gotten are always a bit oversize in width and in that section just behind the trigger where it meets the wood.  You did a nice job.

Regards,
Mako

[Rebel Dave]

Newt and Mako

Nice pistols. These last few threads on open tops have renewed my enthusiasum, again for open tops. I think I will even try my 45s again. All I shoot is the holly blk. So far I have 2-- 45 open tops, and a 38 open top, and a 38 conversion. I wish they were available in 44-40.

Thanks for all the good info.

Rebel Dave    aka   Dave C.

[Mako]

Newt, Rebel Dave and all:

I apologize if I gave any of you the impression that is my pistol.  That is in fact a real Colt's Type II and I wish it was mine because Type IIs are a bit harder to come by.

The ones I have shown, plus a couple of others were used by the broker in the sale to the current owner.  The others I have were taken by the owner.  They are not even digital, he took photos with what I assume was a 35mm film camera and had them processed at a Drug Store.

Regards,
Mako

[Newt]

Mako,
No need to apologize.   Thanks for posting the picture.  Nice to see what an original looks like.  I wish it was mine too.

You're right about the area just behind the trigger where it meets the wood needing worked over.  I guess I kind of enjoy working on making it fit right instead of just screwing in on.  It's been too cold to do any shooting on the weekends here in Iowa, and I'm all caught up on my reloading.  Gives me something to do in the evenings.

[Flint]

The other difference aside from material between the steel and brass backstrap is the notch in the heel for the shoulderstock clamp.  The steel has one, the brass not.  If you have a "four screw", the backstrap will be steel, if you have the Civilian 3-screw, the backstrap will be brass.

[Mako]

The other difference aside from material between the steel and brass backstrap is the notch in the heel for the shoulderstock clamp.  The steel has one, the brass not.  If you have a "four screw", the backstrap will be steel, if you have the Civilian 3-screw, the backstrap will be brass.

Hi Flint,
No offense, but actually, that's not accurate.  There are plenty of examples of three screw versions with Iron back straps, In fact if you can find a picture of an original with an Army sized grip (not a smaller Navy grip) and a Brass back strap I would appreciate you pointing me to it.

The differences between the "military" and "civilian" versions were the clearance cuts on the recoil shields, the two extra screws for the stock mounting and maybe (not always) the detent feature on the butt of the back strap.

I added the quotation marks because that is what we now call them, not what the factory called them.  To Colt's it was just a feature to allow a stock to be attached.  There were true martial pistols that had three screws.

Oh, and to add to the confusion there are plenty of three screw pistols with recoil shield cuts.

True "CIVILIAN MODELS" (Three Screws, Recoil Shields not cut)

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/df17bbdc95acf363415ee57c50965559.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/453ae430b8603bf8e1e270c54698e02e.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/6b6f1ac19c1147228cd29f6f4f4a4d4e.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/c8b3be4aad90e369541a008fe12438d2.jpg

Three screw pistols with recoil shield cuts:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/c37a3242d290b2c920caa1e77d314c84.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/cacaf0a2d1bfd401370978be8d5ff804.jpg

Four Screw pistols cut to accept stocks:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/046cfc0c550d567517c324075368d5b4.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/69d91877419ca748683ff1a0878e63c3.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/94f28d2e5bb6eb803f9abee530301ad2.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/d553b36562476faf0a30720c830ee469.jpg

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

My personal belief (to add to what I mentioned earlier in this thread) is that Colt used what they had on hand to the best they could. For instance, if they ran short on brass they used steel or vice versa. For example, if 95% of '60 Armies have steel BS's & brass TG's we can assume we some certitude that any variation was probably due to what was in inventory on hand which was directly influenced by metal inventory as there in no advantage in one metal over the other for purposes used here.

[Newt]

Been searching google images for the last half hour and I can't find a single picture of a '60 Navy with a brass back strap.  I've also looked through a very interesting book I picked up recently as Bass Pro in Springfield, Mo.  It''s called Metallic Cartridge Conversions written by Dennis Adler.  Here's the link if you're interested http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873493370?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0873493370

I'd be interested in seeing proof of one also!!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Been searching google images for the last half hour and I can't find a single picture of a '60 Navy...

Give up as there is no such thing as a '60 Navy. Hahahaha!! 

[Newt]

LOL!!  You're right.  Guess I need to proof read before posting.  Sorry!!  Meant to say '60 ARMY!!

[Flint]

Mako, actually my reference was to the Italian repros, not the original Colts

I once owned an original 1860 about 50 years ago with the cuts in the recoil shield and steel shoulderstock cut backstrap, but a 3-screw.

[Mako]

Flint,
If you were talking about Italian guns then they could literally have anything on them.  Have you looked at the Pietta  catalog recently?  Go to Pietta.com and look at their "Army" and "Navy" models.  Phewwwww...talk about platypus guns.

If you are talking about Ubertis then The original "Civilian" version looks just like the pictures I posted.  I know, I have 3 pairs of them.  That is my favorite configuration of the Army model.  I don't have any need for a stock cut or screws to get in my way so I like the uncut recoil shield.

I know that Cimarron currently lists a civilian version with a Brass back strap, but I've never see one.  They even have them listed on Texas Jack's site but they don't have any in the store, I asked last time I was in Fredericksburg (Buffalo arms has them listed too since they are a major Cimarron dealer).  The all brass grip is a recent addition to the line as far as I know.  I think they got a bunch in a shipment last year and have been trying to get rid of them since.  That part number CA048 didn't used to exist on the Cimarron page.  I buy the CA047 models, as you can tell I sort of pay attention to 1860 models.

Regards,
Mako