Cimarron 1872 Open Top

[tkcomer]

Kinda had my heart set on an 1872 Open Top.  After lurking here, I decided to go with the 44 Special model, only to be told by Buffalo Arms that there are none in the country and they don't expect any to arrive for months.  They claim very few 44 Specials come to this country.  Now then, I've "heard" the horror stories on this model in 45 Colt.  That's why I decided on the 44 Special.  But I can't get one.  Are the 45 Colts really that bad?  I won't use this gun very much and will use Trail Boss to reload for it.  So, will a few hundred rounds a year hurt this gun?  Any help would be appreciated.

[Abilene]

Howdy Tkcomer,
The guns Buffalo Arms stocks are Cimarrons.  The last inventory list I saw from Cimarron is a bit dated, but based on that I think they have plenty of 5 1/2" .44 Spcl OT's.  So I'm guessing you were wanting 7 1/2".  They also had plenty of 7 1/2" in .44 Colt with Navy grips.  Many times in the past when that was the case they would ream the cylinder to .44 spcl for you before shipping the gun.  If the reamer is in the shop and not loaned out, they might do that.  Just have your favorite dealer call them and ask.

[Mako]

TK,
Abilene is right about availability, he has an inside track because he is involved with Cimarron and knows the current inventory. 

The same happened to me when I wanted Richards Type IIs in .44 spl. I had been waiting almost two years for 8" .44 Specials.  I ordered a pair through my dealer even before they were available in the U.S.  People were getting a few here and there, we were told they were coming in sporadically and my turn would come.  It turns out they were in stock but no one seemed to know until some calls were made by the right people.  I had been calling periodically about my standing order,  and I was also on a waiting list through Cimarron's retail outlet (Texas Jack) as suggested by the staff at Cimarron.  I had literally just called a week or so earlier when a pard told me how a dealer he contacted had called and secured his the day before and he had never been on a waiting list.

Abilene probably won't like me saying this, but I was surprised, but it seems sometimes the inventory is "allocated."  This is what the dealer told me when I called him.  If you don't have any luck PM me and I'll give you the name of a dealer who was able to get them when no one else could.  I'm not saying he can, but it would be one more possibility.

Pay attention to what Abilene said about the .44 Colt chambered pistols.  They will ream them...  Plus I've heard that some .44 Colt marked pistols will accept .44 Spl even without reaming.  I can't verify that, but I trust those I heard it from.  Some people wanted pistols that were .44 Colt and wanted to be able to shoot .44 spl and they went to have them reamed and found they were already the length required. 

I can't specifically recall, maybe it's my imagination, but it might have even Abilene who responded to a post about that and either confirmed or speculated they may have been modifying the cylinders of pistols in inventory at Cimarron to be able to meet the requests for .44 Spl which surpassed those of the .44 Colts.  Maybe he'll see this post and comment on that.

What configuration were you wanting? Army grips or Navy grips?  What barrel length?

~Mako

[tkcomer]

Yes, it was the Army model I wanted.  Kinda like the looks of the longer barrel.  I actually had settled on the 45 when I was warned against it on on anther forum and was pointed to this site.  That's why I didn't ask about the availability of the 45.  Like I said, I have a couple of other oldies in mind and the 45 was available in all three guns.  But I do load for the 44, so I didn't really mind.  Do they have the 45s in stock?  And would my limited shooting damage the gun?

[Mako]

TK,
Why settle for a .45?  You obviously have concerns about them.

Check on the availability of .44s, then you won't have any doubt in the back of your mind.

I'm on the road right now, I'll check on the relative geometries of the particular guns in question when I get home.  I have 2 pairs of Open Tops which I can look at.

One last thing, Abilene said they had .44 Spls in the long barrels with Navy grips.  I actually have a pair of .38 spls just like that which I often use as "loaners" for people who want to shoot older open top style pistols.  Those grips fit more people and I have loaner holsters and ammo is easy to come by.  I often tell them to go get a couple boxes of the cheapest lead bullet ammo they can find, and a box of the 1 oz. Winchester loads and I'll supply the rifle ammo.  Even the aluminum Blazer ammo works well in them.  The only difference is the grip.  Which pistols have you handled?  I don't mean just Open Tops, which pistols have you handled that felt good in your hand?

The army grip originated on the 1860 Army models, most of the other Colt pattern pistols after 1851had the Navy grip.  The grips that are different are on Walkers, Dragoons, small frames, Army model conversions and the '72 Open top came in both flavors. The Navy grip is the same grip that is on all of the S.A.A. models that everyone thinks are the ultimate grips.  I'm not trying to change your mind, I just want you to understand the original '72 Open Tops had both size grips.  The Navy grip is "authentic on this pistol.  I have big hands,  I like Army model grips, plus I tend to shoot 1860 Cap and Ball Revolvers or the Army conversions so I am used to that grip.

The reason I brought it up was that I have bought two pairs of OpenTops from a friend of mine. First he wanted Navy grips because everyone told him that was the best grip of all time.  He not only got the smaller grips but bought them in .38 spl because he wanted to be able to buy ammo anywhere for them.

After shooting them he realized they were different than the Army grips like he had been shooting on an older pair of pistols I loaned him.  So he bought another pair of .44 Spls in the Army grip and I acquired his original set.  Then he got goofy again and decided he wanted USFA pistols and I bought the .44s from him.  Now he has Rugers as well (there's no accounting for good taste).  I had sold my original Open Tops and his were back fills.  He still uses them when he flies in to visit and flop at our place. Last time we swapped the grips out between the two pairs for the match because he had become accustomed to the Navy grip.  I pretty much refuse to let him shoot .38s (long story), I tell him those are for my girls and I have .44 ammo for him to use.

Oh, and to make things even funnier he bought another pair to practice with back home.  Now he's decided to sell that pair, but the guy who he is selling them to wanted 4 3/4" barrels.  I just had the barrels re-crowned for him after he let a kitchen table gunsmith shorten them for him.  Tommy and his "love/hate/love/ambivalent" relationship with the Open Top...

Are you getting my drift?  Make sure you know what grip really feels right to you.  This is one case where you have authenticity on your side, they had both styles on them from the Colt's factory and they weren't special order.

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Now he has Rugers as well (there's no accounting for good taste)...

[tkcomer]

I've never handled the Navy grips.  I have an 1860 Army in black powder and like the way that one feels.  Way better than the '58 Remington.  I do have small hands, so maybe the Navy grips might be a better choice.  I've not seen a gun anywhere that I can try out.  I even have an Uberti dealer right up the road from me, but he doesn't keep any "conversion" in stock.  And he didn't seem too kindly about ordering a Cimarron when I had him on the phone.  I even asked about a 45, but he said Uberti didn't get back with him on the gun.

I'll give Buffalo Arms another call on the Navy version. 

[Mako]

TK,
Handle anyone's Single Action Army and you will be using "Navy" grips.  You may like the larger Army grips better, I have friends that have hands a lot smaller than mine that like the Army grips better.  It's not just about hand size.

Before you start buying, handle a pistol (any pistol) with the "standard"  grip you see on everyone's "cowboy pistol."  I was trying to make sure you didn't repeat what my friend did.

I'm with you on the Remington grips, they feel awkward to me.  Some people swear by them.

But at least hold  something with that grip before you buy...

Regards,
Mako

[Abilene]

It would appear that there are NO OT's in stock at all at Cimarron with Army grips.  Now, the Type II Richards is in stock in almost all barrel lengths and calibers, and those are all Army grips. Those will feel similar to the OT but different sights.   As for the Navy grip being the same as the SAA, well not quite.  At least, not with the Ubertis.  The Navy grip flares out a bit at the bottom rear compared to the Model P grip.  They do not interchange, but they are similar.

Mako, sometimes Cimarron does ream 44 Colt to Spcl fill backorders.  But not all of the sale people there might think of it, which is why I suggest asking about it if they say there are no .44 Spcl in stock.  As for "allocating" backorders, it is usually the policy to fill backorders in the order received but sometimes I too have seen a big dealer occasionally get preferential treatment, and distributors sometimes get guns before iindividual backorders because they are spending big bucks.  

I actually haven't been at Cimarron since early summer due to my other job, but did an Ellet Bros. distributor show for them this past week and will be at Shot Show.  Actually, I'm heading to Vegas early (tomorrow) to go to the Miss America pageant because my niece is Miss Colorado and is competing  

tkcomer, the .45 OT does get a bad rap from some folks but really the percentage of them that crack at the bottom rear of the barrel or "spit out" at the bolt notch is actually low compared to the amount of them that have been sold.  Although I definitely would load light for that one (lots of folks do use .45 S&W or the .45 Cowboy Spcl round in that gun).  If it does crack, that is a warranty repair if it happens within a year.  Cimarron does have the 7 1/2" OT in .45LC with Navy grip in stock, I think.

BTW, I'm basing my statements about what is in stock on an inventory list that is over a month old, but there were a goodly number of certain models in stock at that time so I'm thinking they probably still have those.  Whether they might have received another shipment since that list I can't say.

[Mako]

Abilene,
I'm sure TK appreciates the information. 

Have a safe trip.  I knew you were going to the pageant because I knew you were missing Zeke's memorial.  It was thoughtful of you to send the recording of you playing taps.

Best of luck to her and to you my friend.  That white stuff is called snow...

~Mako

[tkcomer]

Thank you for all this info.  I may just take a chance on the 45.  It's what I really wanted in the first place as I see an 1873 lever and possibly an SAA in the future.  These guns won't see factory ammo.  Low loads with Trail Boss.  Thanks again.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Abilene, is there anything new coming up at the SHOT Show for CAS that we oughta know now? 

[Abilene]

Abilene, is there anything new coming up at the SHOT Show for CAS that we oughta know now? 

I'll try to type fast because gotta go catch a plane.  I was at a distributor show last week and found out a few things.  Cimarron is adding a Pietta line of pistolas.  I think they are the same as GWII's but marked differently.  Less expensive than the Ubertis.  Don't have the authentic markings of the Ubertis.  Cobra is making them a new derringer, the Titan, similar to bond.  .45/.410 and one in 9mm.  Stainless with removeable triggerguard.  The standard '73 brushpopper hasn't changed but the ER version has a checkered straight stock.  And no, there will not be an Uberti-made Merwin-Hulbert at the show.  Oh yeah, and the Redwing screwknife guy is making them a made-in-USA 1873 rifle (he had the frame at the SASS convention, although I never heard anyone else mention that).

Other stuff: Henry R.A. is coming out with a Big Boy mares leg.  Beretta is bringing back the Stampede.  Century Arms has a bunch of .410 hammered coach guns on the way.  EAA is bringing back the Baikal coach gun including the model with "real" hammers.

That's all I know. 

[River Jordan]

does the uberti open top have any sort of the non period hammer safety?

[Abilene]

does the uberti open top have any sort of the non period hammer safety?

Yes (I think it is a requirement for import).
Underneath the firing pin there is a screw on the side of the hammer.  By turning this screw it folds out a small metal wedge underneath the hammer which will hit the frame and prevent the firing pin from protruding through the FP hole.  Some of these safeties have been known to be a little loose and fold out on their own.  One of my 4 Richards-Masons did this.  I could have done some peening or loctite to prevent it, but I just removed those parts (which does leave a visible hole in the side of the hammer where the screw went, but that is only seen when cocked.

Abilene (on WIFI at Vegas airport)

[Mako]

does the uberti open top have any sort of the non period hammer safety?

Yep,
Bit me once in a match when it engaged during a stage.

It is small and you don't even notice it.  You can either remove it, or do what I did which was to grind the offending lobe off so it can't engage even if it is rotated.  The problem with removing it is that the screw through the hammer is threaded into the safety feature.  If you remove the safety there is nothing to put the screw into.  Some people just add permanent loctite to them.

Like I said it is almost unnoticeable now and it can't engage even if it did rotate.  Oh, and I added loctite as well to make sure I wouldn't ever lose the parts again.  I hated the hole in the hammer when I just took the parts out.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Colt%20Conversions/Uberti_opentopschem.jpg

There are four goofy itty btity parts the Screw P/N 152, the Spring P/N 147, the Spring Plunger P/N 149 and the little "round" safety cam P/N 91.

Regards,
Mako  (haaaaaaaaaaaaa, waiting for a plane too!!!!)   How you doing Abilene?

[tkcomer]

Well I chickened out and order the Navy in 44 Special.  Funny thing is, the dealer told me the Cimarron salesmen told him he didn't need an FFL as it was a black powder gun.  Dealer had to tell him that CA 913 was a cartridge gun and he needed that FFL.  Oh well, gun is ordered.  Now I can't make up my mind if I should use those hard cast bullets (Got a lot of 'em) or order the softer "cowboy action" type bullets.

[Mako]

TK,
If they are hard, then they must have smokeless type lube in them.  If you're shooting smokeless then they will work fine.


If you are going to be shooting The REAL POWDER then find a pard that shoots .44 and sell the old bullets to him and buy the Mav Dutchman bullets from Springfield Slim (aka Mark Whyte)

http://whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html


He calls it the "Mav 200 gr" on his site.  If you cast your own, get a mold from Dick Dastardly:

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=d29838a1-de1d-4767-9b74-192b1f1c0db4

You need the right kind of lube and a good amount of it for BP. Cast your bullets from pure lead if possible.

Regards,
Mako

P.S. Oh, and congratulations on the pistol.  Which barrel length and grip did you end up ordering?

[Fox Creek Kid]

I had one of the first '60 RM .44 Colt conversions in country and I had the saftey engage once so I just took it out making it a "skeletonized" speed hammer "a la" a tricked out 1911!! It lightened the hammer speed, improved my love life, grew hair on bald men who shot it, etc. 

[tkcomer]

I went with the 7 1/2 inch in the Navy model.  I have some 240grn .429 plated bullets.  They shoot fine out of my Smith.  Rossi levergun hates 'em.  The rest of the bullets are 200grn Laser Cast bullets.  Like I said, I'll be using Trail Boss to make light loads.