44-40 Magnum Primer?

[Henry4440]

I use for my 44-40 WLPs.
Question: Are the Magnum primers better for Black Powder or are the Winchester Large Pistol primers good enough.
For my  45-70 Sharps, i use Fed 215 Magnum primers.

Thanks

[Pulp]

I can't tell any difference 'twixt magnum and regular primers for .44-40.  But I've never really tested for ultimate accuracy or anything like that.  Every primer I've ever used will shoot minute of CAS. 

I generally use Winchester due to the brass color.

[Mako]

Henry,

Pulp is right, any primer will work.  BP is actually easier to ignite than Smokiless.  I know John Boy has done some research and experimentation with the brisance of primers.  Brisance as it is used in pyrotechnics is the rate at which the pressure rises to the max pressure it will achieve.  For primers it has been used not only for the rate of the rise but the actual final pressure.

A lot of BPCR shooters specifically use low brisance primers to achieve the pressure curves and burn rates they want for consistency.

For CAS I''ll use anything, if it is free or cheap it's even better.  Magnum or regular; weak or strong it makes no practical difference for CAS loads and required accuracies.

Have fun,
Mako

[Grapeshot]

I use for my 44-40 WLPs.
Question: Are the Magnum primers better for Black Powder or are the Winchester Large Pistol primers good enough.
For my  45-70 Sharps, i use Fed 215 Magnum primers.

Thanks

I've used both in the .44-40 WCF and found with Black Powder that either will work just fine.  However, if you are using the various substitutes, I find that Magnum Primers work better and give a cleaner burn.

[Henry4440]

Thanks guys.
For smokeless powder i use Hodgdon Titegroup, 6.2 grs, Starline case and a 205grs WM(Willy Minter) Silvermoly bullet.
When i use the 'Holy Stuff', i take 35 grs Swiss 3 (ffg), 0.070 wad,200grs  bullet(20:1) Lyman : 427666 and Lube 103.

10 shots with my Henry Rifle at 50m with the bp.

[Pulp]

Damn fine shootin' there Mister.  I can't even see a card at 50 meters

[Wills Point Pete]

 You willl want standard primers for real black and mag primers for the subs.

[john boy]

Henry, Mako summed it nicely for you and his advice is spot dead on.
As for the brisance subject, a 44-40 is not a caliber you have to worry about brisance charging with original gunpowder because it is not a long range cartridge - 600 to 1000yds where consistent ignition pressure and velocity are important for accurate groups.  Accordingly, any primer will work in the 44-40.
For BPCR Mid and Long Range shooting with calibers that will group at that range, the CCI BR2 and Federal GLP-Match primers are the primers of choice to reduce brisance also using a heavy paper wad over the flash hole or inside the primer pocket.
Here's some info on the subject... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisance

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mike Venturino did an article a few years back with different revolvers in a Ransom Rest and CCI LP & SP Magnum primers gave the best groups. I agree after doing my own tests over the years.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_52/ai_n16419698/

[Henry4440]

Thanks again,guys.
After reading the article that Mike Venturino wrote, i found this one. Wrote by John Taffin, Levergun loads: the .44-40 WCF.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_49/ai_109351856/?tag=content;col1

[rickk]

Not exactly answering your question, but for handguns, I use Magnum primers pretty much elusively.

They cost pretty much  the same as standard, and I don't have to keep both around. I typically by primers in 5000 primer cases, and it is easier to do that if I am buying less kinds. For a handgun, unless it is for something special, it gets either large or small Federal magnum pistol primers. Federal primers are the best with lightened hammer springs.

For black powder, I am suspecting that standard versus magnum doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference.

For smokeless, I use a lot of Unique powder in reduced loads. My favorite "reduced load" is 4.5 grains of Unique in a 44 magnum with 240 Grain SWC. I use it both for steel plate shooting, and for practice. I haven't done as much practicing since my son was born (no time to do much but play with him), but I used to go to the local indoor range almost every Friday night and put 500 rounds thru my Ruger Redhawk. If I was shooting hot loads I would be flinching and be in pain, but with 4.5 grains it is cake.

Anyway, 4.5 grains of Unique sits pretty low in a 44 magnum case. With standard primers, it is a low enough powder charge that ignition gets a little erratic. With the magnum primers it shoots beautifully. I recall that with standard primers I wanted to be in the 5 to 5.5 grain range to stay out of the "not enough powder" region.

For really hot loads, especially in 357 Magnum or 357 Maximum, I often use H110. H110 is a funny powder. It burns slow, allowing lots of energy without a really high pressure peak. If you want to make an intentional hang-fire round, you can do it with H110. One of the three things you need to do is use standard primers. When done wrong, If it does not hang fire it will squib. Often the bullet will not exit the barrel. When you remove the case the powder will have a few burned granules in it, and the rest will be unburned. It actually can start to burn, but if it does not build up enough pressure it will got out. So, for hot loads with H110, you need Magnum Primers.

So, I prefer Magnum primers for light loads of Unique, and also for hot loads of H110.

So, I use magnum primers for black powder because I have them. If I had standard, I would use them as well.

[Pappy Myles]

Great Article by  Mike Venturino!

For my 2 cents, 44-40 -  I load 5.8 grains of titegroup, starline brass, and WLP primers, and a lyman 427666 mold - about 200 grains.  Lubed with SPG.  Yeah I know its a black powder lube.  No issues cleaning up.   I use this load in both my colt 3rd generation pistols and my uberti saddle gun.  Works great.
When I shoot black powder, same bullet, with a vegetable fiber wad (ok  I buy these by the thousands- and use them for 44-40, 45 colt, and 45-70),  WLP, starline brass, and 32 gr pryodex rs.  (yeah I know its not true holy black, but it was free and I got a lot of it).   I cant tell much difference, esp at the close ranges we shoot for cowboy action.

Now I do alloy my lead a tad softer than Lyman #2 - about 1 and 1/2 soft lead to 1 lynotype.  Works for both loads.

Simple use of similar components.  And I use an older Rock Chucker with a piggy back 2 conversion unit, that has been filled on, sanded on, JB welded at spots, and it works.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I don't think anyone has said it yet.  For .44-40, whether for pistol OR RIFLE, use Large pistol primers.


rickk;  next time you are buying powder, try TITEGROUP for your moderate loads.

[w44wcf]

Lonesome Henry,
That's some mighty fine shootin'!   Your group with the Lyman Cowboy bullet (427666) is much better than what John Taffin was able to do with his. THen again, SWISS is the only black powder that will make that smokeless bullet (small lube groove) run accurately for a number of shots without cleaning.

Regarding primers used in a repeating rifle.  The early Black powder primers were milder than smokeless primers. If you look at my avatar, you will notice that the early 44 W.C.F. / .44-40 primers were small (.175) and not large (.210) that we have today.

Premium black powder in the late 1800's burned with a small amt of moisture in the residue. If a hotter / magnum primer was used, it would tend to make the residue dryer which would lessen the number of shots that could be fired accurately.

It has been reported that SWISS powder has a .02% moitsure content in the creosote that it contains form the charcoal used.
That is the main reason why it works much better than other black powders in repeating rifles with bullets that have minimum lube capacity.

On the other hand, black powders that leave a dry residue likely benefit from a hotter primer to help decrease the amt of fouling left in the barrel after each shot.

w44wcf

[Noz]

I don't think anyone has said it yet.  For .44-40, whether for pistol OR RIFLE, use Large pistol primers.


rickk;  next time you are buying powder, try TITEGROUP for your moderate loads.

Many of the older recipes for 44/40 call for Large Rifle primers. I called Starline to see how they cut their primer pockets for their 44/40 cases. I was told emphatically that they were cut for Large Pistol.
So, +1 for the LP.

[Henry4440]

Lonesome Henry,
That's some mighty fine shootin'!   Your group with the Lyman Cowboy bullet (427666) is much better than what John Taffin was able to do with his.
w44wcf

I'm not always  that good.
The biggest improvement for my accuracy i got when i cast my own bullets.
All the bullets that i purchased here in Germany were to hard for my Henry.
The 20:1 works perfect in my Henry. I use the same for my Sharps.
A friend of mine is shooting a 66 and a 73.
The 73 shoots like my Henry but his 66  like a shotgun.But only with Black Powder.When he use Titegroup, it's perfect.

[john boy]

It has been reported that SWISS powder has a .02% moitsure content in the creosote that it contains form the charcoal used.

John, when Swiss powder leaves the Corning process, the moisture content is 8% ... onto the Polishing process.
When the powder leaves the Polishing process, the moisture content is 2 - 3% ... onto the Drying process (40C for 24 hours).  When it leaves the Dryers, the moisture of the finished sporting grade powder in the cans is 0.5%
Source:  Bill Knight

[Fox Creek Kid]

I'm not Cuts Crooked, but I have been around here enough years to know that it is a big "no no" to talk about smokeless loads & their "recipes" in this Forum. Just a heads up. 

[Fairshake]

I had to laugh a little when reading the replies to the original question. The answers have nothing to do with the question. It happens all the time. I think some just read the post above and react to that. Where was it asked if you use large or small primers? Where was it asked about needing load data for smokeless powder? Where did the OP ask for any load data?If this would have been a stage shoot at a SASS match they would have more than one pard with a procedural. Mike's article was about revolvers and I promise you that if you look at any long range BP rifle event you will not see the Magnum primers. As John Boy pointed out most of the top shooters use a paper wad over the primer and before the powder to lessen the brilliance of the charge for a more even burn. BP burns from it's outer surface first and requires very little to set it off.

[Henry4440]

For BPCR Mid and Long Range shooting with calibers that will group at that range, the CCI BR2 and Federal GLP-Match primers are the primers of choice to reduce brisance also using a heavy paper wad over the flash hole or inside the primer pocket.

Never heard that before. How thick is the heavy paper wad?