Historical Question..

[Mako]

Hmmm...FCK,

Well I'm not Raven, but I have a theory about the .44 WCF.

Perhaps he changed his name to Ned Spagnoli, hid on a ship to Italy and did what Uberti has only now reinstituted in the 21st century, he totally redesigned his pistols, stretching the frames, giving them larger cylinders and rebarreled them as well.  Aldo Uberti found the plans for the conversions hidden in a wine cellar in the 1950s and it took him 40 plus years to finally apply those designs to the Frankenstein Conversions and Open Tops in the Army model frames we see today that allow .45 Colt to be used.

It all makes more sense now, I always wondered what possessed Uberti to scale the cylinders and to add gas rings at the expense of semi-authenticity (at least in size, definitely not caliber) and more importantly safety in the case of the splitting forcing cones on .45s.

The rims on a .44 WCF are even bigger than a .45 Colt or .44 Mag.  They are nominally ø.525".  Impossible to fit in an 1860 without modifying each and every cartridge used.  The .44 Colt had that special small diameter rim of .483"

In addition the neck of a .44 WCF is Ø.443" and the base is Ø.471.  Not only would the case be loose as a goose in the chamber but the Ø.427 bullet would have rattled down the chamber until it hit the forcing cone and then rattled down the bore which has a land diameter of .440".

Not empirical, but rather whimsical.

I have noticed a tendency for us to build up the exploits of the outlaw (regardless of whether or not you think they were innocent or if you {or popular mythos} have have elevated them to the status of folk heroes) and their capabilities.  You see the same thing with Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Butch and Sundance and the list goes on...

Hmmm I wonder... but, I must say I am skeptical about the possibility of .44 WCF.

Regards,
Mako

[Grizzly Adams]

Mako, mi amigo, you are  most knowledgeable, but you  really need to loose the sunglasses!   ......

[StrawHat]

(Just posting to be able to come back.)

[Flint]

The only Opentop 44-40 I've seen was built (at great expense, I would imagine) on a SAA frame.  The topstrap was removed, an arbor installed and a barrel either made or adopted from an Uberti OT.  The front of the frame must have been extended to reach the barrel lug.  Other than the fluted cylinder, it looked fairly authentic.

Might be a fun project if I could find a SAA repro beater needing a serious rebuild.

As a side issue, I cannot stand the fluted cylinders as Pietta makes them on the percussions.  They should be as Colt and Uberti made with the softer corners.

[StrawHat]

Mako,

I thought the original 44 Colt utilized a heeled bullet?  The shank that fit in the case was .43 and the part that stayed outside the case was .45.  This type of bullet would fill the bore of the barrel and also the chamber.

[Mako]

Mako,

I thought the original 44 Colt utilized a heeled bullet?  The shank that fit in the case was .43 and the part that stayed outside the case was .45.  This type of bullet would fill the bore of the barrel and also the chamber.

Strawhat,
you are correct if speaking of the .44 Colt.  My little excursion was talking about the possibility of a .44 WCF (.44-40) conversion.  Those bullets were Ø.427 in the 19th century.

That was a response to FCK saying he had heard the Ned story but the conversion was to .44WCF.

What else can I do for you today?

Regards,
Mako

[5judge]

If I might interject my puny two cents' worth: did not Colt reacquire numbers of its revolvers from the military after the War and was this not a substantial pool from which conversions were made and subsequently peddled to the civilian market? just asking.

[Fox Creek Kid]

If I might interject my puny two cents' worth: did not Colt reacquire numbers of its revolvers from the military after the War and was this not a substantial pool from which conversions were made and subsequently peddled to the civilian market? just asking.

No, it did not.

[Raven]

Both the Army and the Navy sent substantial numbers of percusion revolvers to both Colt and Remington to be converted to cartridge for resupply to the troops

Raven

[Mako]

Both the Army and the Navy sent substantial numbers of percusion revolvers to both Colt and Remington to be converted to cartridge for resupply to the troops

Raven

But for their own use.  As Raven stated it was 

for resupply to the troops.

The government still does that today (been there, done that).

Raven and the Fox Creek Kid are both right.  I am just restating that so that there won't be any confusion on 5Judge or anyone's part.  Yes, the military did return pistols for conversion; and no, Colt's did not keep them for civilians sales.  The military arms were reinspected and in most if not all cases restamped with a new additional serial number after the conversion.  The same is done today with markings indicating refurbishment on all manners of equipment.

Regards,
Mako

[5judge]

Understood: the military tendered Colt numerous Colt percussion revolvers for refurbishment and, in some cases, conversion and reissue. Believe I recall reading the Navy continued to use its converted percussion revolvers well into the 1880s. But what about the Army? When the '73 Colt  and S&W Schofield .45s  began to replace the conversions, when did the government begin selling-off these obsolescent revolvers? Were they a source of conversions in civilian hands in our period of interest?

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Were they a source of conversions in civilian hands in our period of interest?

Of course. Colt only converted a little over 1,000 1st Model Richards for the Military in 1871 and later on several thousand '51 Navies for the Navy beginning in 1876. The thousands of other conversions were for civilian consumption.

[Raven]

I think 5Judge was refering to conversions belonging to the Army after the 1873 was introduced.

I belive the conversions probably went to 2nd line troops and reserves as the 73 was issued. I'm sure the conversions were eventualy sold as surplus to companies such as Bannermans but probably not before the turn of the century.

This is a question for St. George

[Mako]

I have no idea of the time lines but the Army held weapons a long time.  Don't forget the Army began reissuing the '73 after they confronted the Moros in the Philippines following the Spanish American War.  My best friend tells the story of his  father being issued a '73 in the cavalry unit he was in prior to WWII, he then ended up in the 10th Mtn. and handled mules until he departed for Italy.

Following WWI the Army began selling reserves of '73 Springfield Trapdoors they were holding for military reserve and guard units.  They were now flush with P17s and Springfields plus they still had Krags in reserve.  My Grandfather and his brothers literally bought a couple of cases of rifles and ammunition. One of my great uncles was a train engineer (had cash unlike a lot of people at the time) happened to be at a military depot when they were having a sale sometime in the late 20's.

My whole point to this is that the military keeps weapons and equipment long after they actually need it.  Raven is right, it was probably the 20th century before they sold them as surplus.

As FCK has pointed out the vast majority were converted for civilian sales.  If you go look at any auction house catalog you will find the majority are not marked as military conversions.

~Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

I think 5Judge was refering to conversions belonging to the Army after the 1873 was introduced.

I belive the conversions probably went to 2nd line troops and reserves as the 73 was issued. I'm sure the conversions were eventualy sold as surplus to companies such as Bannermans but probably not before the turn of the century.

This is a question for St. George

OK, I misconstrued the question. As Mako said the Military was reticent in selling arms en masse to the public. Hell, they didn't start letting Spencers go until the 1870's after they had been replaced. There were some sales throughout the 1880's and beyond but before then it was spotty if at all for conversions or S&W Americans (cicra. 1,000 bought in 1871).
The gov't was holding onto some Civil War tack until after WWI !!!!

[Raven]

Hey Mako if I were the Fox Creek  Kid I'm not sure I would like that accronym. There is only one thing I think of every time I see it. 

Raven

[Mako]

Hey Mako if I were the Fox Creek  Kid I'm not sure I would like that accronym. There is only one thing I think of every time I see it. 
Raven

I think of one thing as well, I think of someone who's a bit hard headed at times , but really knows his stuff.   I tend to think the same thing when I see your alias.  Is that what you think as well?

Regards,
Mako

[Montana Slim]

A bit off-topic..but I'm reminded of a mysterious phone call I had a few years ago...A call from an arms room...fishing for info about a rifle and cartridge designation. After a bit of Q&A I determined the soldier had a Krag Rifle and were trying to order ammuniton via supply 

Slim

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hey Mako if I were the Fox Creek  Kid I'm not sure I would like that accronym. There is only one thing I think of every time I see it. 

Raven

That's what the girls tell me! 

[Driftwood Johnson]

While I have NO factual documentation to back this up, I'd bet if you were in Northern Utah, or had talked with someone from that area, you might have sent your gun to this Mormon kid who was working in his father's gun shop.  He probably didn't do much with handguns, but you never know...  Eventually, he got around to making a breechloading single-shot rifle, and sold about 680 of them (I've seen one with that serial number)...before T.G. Bennet of Winchester got wind of the rifle and decided he needed it in the Winchester line.  The youngster was, of course, John Moses Browning!

Hey Trailrider

I'll bet you're right. I have a copy of Browning's biography, written by his son, also named John Browning. J. M. Browning was in his early twenties when he was granted the patent for his single shot rifle in 1879. Up until that time he was mostly repairing worn and broken old guns.

Regarding bullet diameter of the 44 Colt cartridge, I have several in my cartridge collection. Three are Remington UMC, one is WRA. All have bullet diameters about .445-.450. All are heeled bullets. Cartridge case diameters are all around .452.

I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion of how conversions were done, except that I am pretty sure that Remington was doing factory conversions of their 1858 revolver design under license from S&W, who controlled the Rollin White patent at the time.