Historical Question..

[WildWillCasey]

I've been interested in Richards-mason's conversions for a while now and have been wondering for some time how the average person went about having their gun converted back in the west. I know a majority of people converted their guns to avoid the cost of buying a new iron, and i also know that colt sold whole converted guns. But what about the people who already possessed percussion guns that they wanted to have converted? Did colt offer services where they would convert your gun, or would the town gunsmiths have handled these types of jobs? Thanks in advance for taking the time to read.

[Mako]

WildWillCassey,

Mr. Charles Richards and Mr. William Mason were employees at Colt's.  You will notice we are constantly talking about the Richards Type I and the Type II as well as the Richards-Mason conversions.  As a side note Mason did most of the design work (or at least was the named inventor on the patents) for the '72 Open Top and the S.A.A. as well.

You would send your pistol to Colt's, or have someone do that for you.  It is also my understanding some enterprising individuals would gather some pistols and send them back to have inventory for their dry goods or hardware stores.

There were also individual gunsmiths that made conversions, there are examples that show up at auctions and in collections. These have been documented in the definitive book on the percussion conversions called A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers by R. Bruce McDowell.

Regards,
Mako

[Raven]

It cost $3 to have Colt convert a percussion revolver to cartridge as compared to $16-$18 to buy a new revolver.
The factories and individual gunsmiths  did conversions and there is some evidence suggesting that Colt sold conversion parts to individual gunsmiths.
Contrary to what the movies portray the 1873 S.A.A. was not generaly available to civilians till the mid 1880's.

Raven

[WildWillCasey]

Reason i ask about gunsmiths doing conversions is that it must have been quite an endeavor to ship your piece all the way across the US and basically be unarmed for weeks. If i was around back then i would much rather have my gun converted locally.

[Raven]

and still be unarmed for weeks

Raven

[Mako]

Ahhhh... the mind set of the "instant society" we live in today.  

They would be thrilled to get it back in weeks.  Gunfights and the need to protect yourself were the exception rather than the rule, just as they are today.  I know of very few civilians who have ever used a firearm to protect themselves.  The movies, novels and B-Western serials have made us think everyone went around armed and that gunfights were common.  It is actually more dangerous today in a lot of cities than it was in the 19th century.

The reality of the situation was that cowboys (if they even had a pistol) probably kept it in a saddle bag.  Working cattle is hard enough without having weight around your waist.  The weapon of choice for a cowboy would have been a rifle or carbine, some carried shotguns.  Usually not short barreled "coach guns," but 30 inch barreled doubles.  Shotguns had also been used by mounted troops of the Confederacy, and weren't as uncommon as the movies make it seem.  There were a lot more shotguns and even muzzle loading rifles than there were pistols.

A "gunfighter," the few that there were would have probably had a second pistol if they had been using cap guns.  Gamblers and people in crime prone areas like mining camps probably bought from the guns that were reworked and sold by the dry goods stores and hardware stores I spoke of earlier.

You can get an idea of what people wanted when you see that the 1849 outsold the belt pistols and saddle guns by quite a bit.  These were the home and store defense guns of the day.  Belt guns were a luxury and as Raven said we have been led to believe that everyone carried a 4 3/4" S.A.A. and a model '92 Win by years of movies.  The reality was that they carried Cap Guns and whatever rifle they could get.  Old Henrys and Spencers were probably much more common than the new Winchesters and that includes '66s.  When the possibility of getting a cartridge pistol came along in the form of a conversion.  I  would bet many of them would simply drop off a pistol when in a town where the service was advertised (primarily at a general store, dry goods or hardware store).  And pick it back up when they came back through.

It is no simple task to make a conversion without power equipment.  Gunsmiths that did more than simple repairs were few and far apart.  The Gunsmiths that had been building the rifles and pistols in the Eastern states seemed to stay in that part of the country.  Some ventured West but still had rudimentary equipment and not the steam powered overhead shaft driven machines they had in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and so forth.  There were few factories in the South that had been capable of even producing arms in the war between the states.  The postbellum West and South took time to get to the levels we are familiar with today.

Let me ask you a simple question, how many gunsmiths do you know today that are capable of making a conversion to a replica pistol?  The gunsmiths today have access to fine tools and parts that are a phone call or internet order away and they don't do conversions.  Few barrel actions, inlet stocks or make parts.  The average gunsmith today is a parts re-placer, just as they were in the 19th century.  How far would you have to drive today to go drop off your pistol to have it converted?  I have local shooters ask me were to get something as simple a barrel shortened or a sight staked into barrel.  I have to send them out of town in most cases.  

In addition, it seems most gunsmiths want to dovetail front sights these days because they can buy a ready made dovetail cutter from Brownells. Something as simple as installing a sight per the original seems to be an art (because it appears no longer to be simply knowledge), cutting a slot with a keyway cutter and staking the factory sights available from VTI  appears to be almost lost on most gunsmiths today.

Well as you can see I ramble about the dearth of gunsmiths today, it was a problem 130 or so years ago as well.

Regards,
Mako

[WildWillCasey]

Pard, you got me all wrong. I tend not to garner knowledge from Hollywood fantasies, nor am I a fan of "Instant Society", But i appreciate your knowledgeable answers nonetheless. Ya helped me learn a little more about RM conversions and old west gunsmithing. 

[Harley Starr]

It cost $3 to have Colt convert a percussion revolver to cartridge as compared to $16-$18 to buy a new revolver.
The factories and individual gunsmiths  did conversions and there is some evidence suggesting that Colt sold conversion parts to individual gunsmiths.
Contrary to what the movies portray the 1873 S.A.A. was not generaly available to civilians till the mid 1880's.

Raven

The converted revolvers helped win the West. The fabled Colt Peacemaker won the Western.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Colt SAA's were available to the general public before & at the same time as the military. However, the military did suck up the vast majority the first year and all but two units were supplied by late '74. Remember that the Army was downsized after the Civil War to 25,000 until after the Custer debacle. Famed badman Johnny Ringo had serial #222 SAA & miltary rejects were sold to the public as well which caused great consternation between Colt & the military at one point. Like any new firearm in a "non-instantaneous" society it took time to become commonplace. However, Colt was also trying to clear out the bins on the older percussion parts as well but seemed to market these more & more to Latin American countries after the SAA introduction as there was a huge market there.

From all I have read there seemed to be realtively few who went to the trouble to send their old percussion guns in for Colt to convert. Sure, it happened, but it appears not as often as one would believe. I am reminded of what Daniel Wesson of S&W said in this period to the effect that S&W was in the business of manufacturing handguns & not selling them. They left that part to the jobbers.

Here's a gunsmith conversion I saw for sale today:
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=40260

[Cherokee Reb]

Ned Christie, a Cherokee, is said to have converted his two 1860 Armies to fire cartridge when after he killed a local lawman and went into hiding in the Nations.

http://www.whitsett-wall.com/Assets/Photos/Fort%20Smith/Ned%20Christie.gif

[Shotgun Franklin]

Working cattle is hard enough without having weight around your waist.

Because I'm a Cop, when I'd work cows I always carried a little IJ .38 Breaktop in my right front pocket. Never needed it but felt I ought to have something handy. I could see SOME late 1800s Cowboys doing about the same especially those who also pushed a Badge on occasion.   

[santee]

I wonder if you got it back re-blued (assuming the bluing had worn off)?

[Trailrider]

While I have NO factual documentation to back this up, I'd bet if you were in Northern Utah, or had talked with someone from that area, you might have sent your gun to this Mormon kid who was working in his father's gun shop.  He probably didn't do much with handguns, but you never know...  Eventually, he got around to making a breechloading single-shot rifle, and sold about 680 of them (I've seen one with that serial number)...before T.G. Bennet of Winchester got wind of the rifle and decided he needed it in the Winchester line.  The youngster was, of course, John Moses Browning!

[Mako]

First of all I want to tell WildWillCasey that was not directly aimed at you.  We all expect things when we want them.   Just yesterday we went to a different restaurant when we were told the wait would be 20 minutes.  We spent more time getting back in two cars and going to the next one than if we had stayed (I kept my mouth shut...).

Ridgeway Texican Ranger, alas it was the buffalo gun that won the west.  A pistol, no matter how revered had little to do with it.  I would say the Henrys, Spencers, Yellow Boys and '73s would be next in line.  Then a slew of shotguns, military surplus Springfields, Enfields and French muzzleloaders wou ld be next.  The '73 Single Action would be way down the list.  Like you, I'd be willing to bet it would be behind the cap guns and conversions .

Fox Creek Kid, I  hear you and respect your research and knowledge.  But for your one non-Colt's conversion you posted I can find ten Colt's pistols in less than 5 minutes.  You do a search on conversions and you will be taken directly to the sites.  I know you already know this.

The fact remains, Colt's did conversions, it is documented and the results are in our museums and private collections.

Cherokee Reb, that  was one resourceful individual  if he made conversions without any equipment and while in hiding.  I can't even begin to conceive of how he did it and I've built firearms.

Shotgun Franklin, the pertinent  words are

little IJ .38 Breaktop.

Yep I've carried small .22s as well while working cattle, I've tried holster guns as well and they always are in the way.  Like I said, I think they ended up in saddle bags unless trouble was expected.  A carbine in the scabbard was really more useful when out of town working.

Santee, I used to wonder the same thing about refinishing.  I have pretty much come to the conclusion they (Colt's) did based on some better preserved pistols in collection.

Trailrider,  that is fun to think about, but it goes back to one of my original statements. "Qualified Gunsmiths were few and far between."  I doubt  J.M. Browning, his father or brothers were the source of the pistols we see in the museums today.  I have read extensively on John Browning and even in his son's biography which is the best of those that exist he never alludes to this and I have never seen it brought up anywhere else.

So today we have individuals like Raven or Hoof Hearted to name a few who are very capable, but as I said before, how many more can you name?  And you only know of them because of modern communication and the internet.  Colt's advertised and they would send the flyers to town stores or have their representative drummers talk the store owners into posting them.

The same was true a few years ago when there were some centralized gunsmithing centers that would get business from small gun stores, hardware stores etc.  Even today, I know of several local gunshops that send all of their finishing work to one individual who does almost all of the bluing in the area.

Well, once again that is just my opinion.  For that and $1.75 you can get a small (oops I mean TALL) regular brewed cup of coffee at Starbucks.  AND IT BETTER BE QUICK!  And to go...

Happy new year y'all,
Mako

[buckskin billy]

i remember reading about ned christie being a blacksmith and a gunsmith. i am wanting to think it was written by phil spangenberger in a true west magazine, but for the life of me can't find it for a reference.
i did a quick search on the internet and though i take alot of these sites with a grain of salt i found this article written about ned christie and it to said he was a black smith and gun smith

http://www.historynet.com/ned-christie-cherokee-outlaw.htm

that being true he would had been more than able to convert his colts to fire cartridges as well as make the parts need to do so.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Fox Creek Kid, I  hear you and respect your research and knowledge.  But for your one non-Colt's conversion you posted I can find ten Colt's pistols in less than 5 minutes.  You do a search on conversions and you will be taken directly to the sites.  I know you already know this...

  You lost me. I was talking about Colt percussion guns deliberately sent to Colt by their respective owners to be converted. 

[Mako]

  You lost me. I was talking about Colt percussion guns deliberately sent to Colt by their respective owners to be converted. 

FCK,
I was too.  I have been looking for the reference, but I read somewhere about the bills being posted in stores, saloons, liveries and elsewhere by sales representatives who actually represented a lot of companies back East.  I hoped to find it with a quick search online but "no joy..."  probably in one of my books.  I have a bunch in storage right now which frustrates me no end.

You may very well be right that many were the factory getting rid of old stock.  I'm sure some of the Richards-Mason conversions (especially the Army models) were just that.  Of course we know the army sent some back in.  I pay attention to the serial numbers on the ones I see on auction sites and they don't appear to just be later serial numbers on the type I and type IIs.  They are a mixed bunch, this is what I found a few minutes ago on a couple of auction sites.  These are all conversions and one of the 1860s S/N 6047 is an R&M.

Model	S/N	Orig.  Mfg. Date
1851	3280	1852
1851	62125	1857
1851	3027	1852
1860	200126	1873
1860	144144	1864
1860	73000	1863
1860	195469	1872
1860	6047	1862
1860	39167	1863
1861	4463	1862
1861	2817	1862
1861	20174	1865
1861	2232	1862
1861	2895	1862
1861	3128	1862

Based on the original dates of manufacture someone was sending them back.  Maybe it wasn't an individual, but someone was.  I also said that some enterprising stores stocked the conversions so they must have sent some back or bought guns offered by a representative.  But once again they had to get back to the factory somehow.

The best to you,
Mako

[Raven]

Ned Christie was a gunsmith.

But the idea that he could build a conversion revolver while on the run is far fetched. No offence intended.
It takes a machine shop to do the work.

My family have been gunsmiths for over 500 years, arriving in New York in the late 1600's. they followed the frontier till after the civil war and made complete firearms from scratch wherever they were.
For those interested do a google search on John Schreit, my direct ancestor, he built the earliest signed and dated Pennsylvania Long Rifle known to collecters. The early Swiss/German gunsmiths were one large extended familiy the Schreit/Strite family are related to the Hawkins/Hachens, Foxes, Spencers, Gardeners, Henrys, Le Fevers, and many others. The original immigrants arrived with little more than their hand tools but within a few short years built the tools and machines to manufacture firearms. The sons and grandsons of these men went on to work for Colt, Remington, and the various Arsenals. Some even became famous in their own right. My point is, that while there were few gunsmiths on the frontier the full time gunsmith would have had the equipment necessary to do the work.
While I do not believe the Browning family did conversions it is very obvious that they had very sofisticated equipment (for the time) in order to build the rifles they designed.

Several writers have suggested that Colt sold conversion parts to gunsmiths. A gun converted with Colt supplied parts on the frontier by a qualified gunsmith would be very hard to tell from a factory converted revolver. Then we have the Mystery Conversions with serial numbers suggesting that quite a few were converted possibly in Mexico.
Unfortunatly we will never have a clear picture of what was done.

Raven
AKA Jay Strite
Kirst Konverter LLC

[Cherokee Reb]

NeDe WaDe , Ned Christie, was a member of the Cherokee Executive counsel and was schooled as a blacksmith and gunsmith by his father. He was not on the run at the time he did his conversions but at his fathers well stocked shop and forge.  NeDe WaDe believed in being prepared and proved so by holing up in a stone house and later a double walled cabin the had a fill of packed soil between the inner and outer walls. This latter fort withstood shelling from a small cannon and a wagon load of dynamite exploding near a wall.

My heroes have always been.......well, not always cowboys

Cherokee Reb

[Fox Creek Kid]

I have always thought the Ned Christie conversion story suspect as it varies from place to place with some even saying he converted them to 44-40 which is not possible in a '60 Army to my knowledge. Raven would know that better than I. I need a little more empirical evidence before I become a believer.