.36 Navy Load?

[ZVP]

 Having read many accounts of Wild Bills different "Impossible Shots" and one shot kills I wonder if anyone actually KNOWS the load he used?
I have read of a 25 gr load of Black Powder being used to test out the famous "Dave Tuttle" shooting. However I have always been advised that a 22 grain loading was the optimal for the '51 Navy and that's what I have used.
So was Hickock's load the 25 grain Black Powder fill?
ZVP

[StrawHat]

Having read many accounts of Wild Bills different "Impossible Shots" and one shot kills I wonder if anyone actually KNOWS the load he used?
I have read of a 25 gr load of Black Powder being used to test out the famous "Dave Tuttle" shooting. However I have always been advised that a 22 grain loading was the optimal for the '51 Navy and that's what I have used.
So was Hickock's load the 25 grain Black Powder fill?
ZVP

I recall reading that the revolver used to kill Tutt was a Dragoon Colt.  So... do we even know what revolver he used that day?

[Pettifogger]

The difference in velocity between 22 and 25 grains out of a .36 is negligible.  There is no "optimal" load for a .36 shooting real BP.  As long as you can seat the ball, you are optimal.

[ZVP]

 Historical accounts say Bill chose one of his trusted Civil War Navies to shoot that day.
The load tested by "Guns of the Old West" author stated that he tested his own version of the impossible shot with a 25 gr load of BP.Bill was a proficent shot supposedlly shooting out then reloading his pistols every morning to rnsure ignition and speed of fire.
Knowing Cap and baall revolvers as I do, I caan see the merit of having a second back-up pistol!
I would probaqblly go with the 25 grain B/P load if my life depended on a full chamber. I'd load heavy!
It'd still be intresting to find Wild Bill's load...
ZVP

[StrawHat]

The difference in velocity between 22 and 25 grains out of a .36 is negligible.  There is no "optimal" load for a .36 shooting real BP.  As long as you can seat the ball, you are optimal.

+1,  If you can seat the ball, you're good to go.

[StrawHat]

My brother tells me the autopsy report on Tutt has recently been found.  I wonder if it has any light to shed on the story?

[Fox Creek Kid]

My brother tells me the autopsy report on Tutt has recently been found.  I wonder if it has any light to shed on the story?

It will probably say under cause of death "lack of oxygen caused by acute lead poisoning." 

[SGT John Chapman]

HVLP is the terminology used today, for real..... High Velocity Lead Poisoning

[Dead I]

+1,  If you can seat the ball, you're good to go.

Years ago I cut off a tube that screws into my powder flask that throws 40 grns by volumn of FFG.  That's usually what I shoot.  I shoot an old TC Hawkin .45 and Ruger and Remington C&B pistols with the same load.  My .36 repro was stolen years ago, but I shot 20 grns of BP. 

I don't think the # of powder makes much difference as long as you have room to cram in an oversized round bullet.  I've never had a conical bullet shoot as good as balls.   

[ZVP]

  Too bad history has so many gaps in it and facts get lost or go astray Some points seem insignificant andget lost (like Bills Load data)
I think I am safe staying at 22-25 grains with a Wad.If the ball seems to be too shallow, I'll add a little filler such as Corn Starch to bring the Ball up to the forcing cone. I just can't see overloading the cylinder.
I think Bill chose the Navy because of the penetration of the high velocity .36 caliber ball. People in the old days tended to wear more clothing and speed and penetration was needed to ensure a vital organ hit. This coupled with the inherant pointing quality of the '51 Navy and you have a truely deadly combination!  The .44 is powerfull load but the penetration is down in comparision to the .36. Having no real information on Wild Bill's understanding of the true ballistics, I can only make assumptions.  The speed of the ball and the agility of the revolver being my understanding. That at least makes most sense. as to why Hickock chose the .36 over the .44.
For my own uses (paper punching and plinking) the .36 makes a lot of sense. It is far more ecomical on powder and the balls cost slightly less too.
I need to repair the Hand on my "London Model" '51 and then I can maybe make a better determination on the "Why" of Hickok's choice of the .36 caliber.
ZVP

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use 22 gr. FFFg in my Uberti '51 and '61.  With a egg carton pulp wad soaked in BP lube the rammed ball sits just under the face of the cylinder

[Adirondack Jack]

I know in my little 62 navy, a 23 grain load of Swiss and a wad is all she'll take without ya bend the rammer.  It barks right smart but fragments caps badly, tying up the gun.  Back er down to 20, ya get far fewer cap issues, and yet she'd be plenty deadly.

[Oregon Bill]

Sir Charles, I am "greatly pleased" with your egg-carton wad idea.

[Roshi]

IMHO  Wild Bill used his Colt Navy because that's the handgun he was used to and it had worked for him.  If  I ever had to go up against someone I'd use my older than me Colt 1911 because that's the handgun I'm used to and trust.

[brazosdave]

on Youtube, go to Brushhippies videos, he attempts to recreate the shot, and it's pretty good! He was using black powder of his own concoction, you can find him at gunslingersgulch.com

[Southpaw]

I recently saw that video. He doesn't say exactly but I wonder how many times he reloaded just to make the hit............Southpaw

[brazosdave]

knowing Al, I think it was a one shot deal.

[harleydavis]

Wild Bill shot Dave Tutt at a documented 75 yards. It was thought for some time that JBH used a Colt Dragoon that day in Springfield. Evidence now shows that he was, in fact, packing a brace of Colt's Navy models at that time in his life. The military tested the 1851 Colt with an 83gr ball and 22gr of powder and that became the regulation load. I would suspect that Bill's load to have been similar to that. Hickok fired one shot, Tutt fired nearly simultaneously. Witnesses thought that only one shot had beeen fired, that is how closely they fired at each other. Hickok's ball entered Tutt on his right side between the 5th & 7th ribs and passed out the left between the 5th & 7th ribs. He died in less than 2 minutes. Bill used the Navies because they fit his hands better than the larger gripped 1860 Colts and the S&W American's he was given by Bill Cody. It was what he was used to and had used with great effect for some 15 years by the time of his demise. He did have a pair of conversion revolvers he was practicing with by the time he was in Deadwood. What did he have with when he was killed? His Williamson's for sure. Going into a potentially lethal situation I would believe that James Butler would have carried his trusted 1851 Colt Navies. where did his Navies end up? this has never been proven beyond all doubt. Joseph G Rosa's last book "Wild Bill Hickok, Gunfighter" covers all his fights in great detail. Mr. Rosa honored me by asking me to pose for the pictures showing Hickoks method of pulling his pistols in this book. Joe is quite a fine fellow.

[Roshi]

IMHO  Wild Bill used his Colt Navy because that's the handgun he was used to and it had worked for him.  If  I ever had to go up against someone I'd use my older than me Colt 1911 because that's the handgun I'm used to and trust.

+1

I'm an older shooter who has shot almost every pistol available but started with a 1911 in 1970.  It would be my go to gun since i've put more than 200,000 rounds down range with 1911's in the last 40 years.

[Hickok]

My Navy is a Pietta, and I load 22 gr. FFFg by volume, a thin paper/card board wad over the powder, a dab of SPG lube between the ball and the wad, sometimes an OX-yoke wad instead. This load is all I can comfortably get into the cylinder. Shoots well for me.