Finally got one!

[ODgreen]

Well my dad decided to but a 58 New Army so he gave me his old Cabelas 51 Colt Navy in .44. Awesome. I just got back from BPS getting the bullets, pyrodex and other stuff I needed. including a cleaning kit. Problem is I can't get the wedge out. Right now the baby is sleeping so I'm forbidden any loud pounding. Oh well. Hopefully I can get out to shoot it tommorow!

[rickk]

A single tap with a lead or plastic hammer should loosen it.

[ODgreen]

I tried the back of a screwdriver handle. It looks like my dad might back banged on it with a screw driver blade at some point. Can't do anything right now, I'm the only one awake in the house so. Yeah. I'll give it a try tonight.

[ODgreen]

OK another question. The manual I found from Pietta online, said for the 1851 to use .454 and 12-15 grains of powder. I guess the manual my dad has says .451 and 28 grains of pyrodex. he has fired the .454 balls through it before, just fine. though I thought 28 grains a little hot for the brass frame. Any idea of how I should do this would be great.

[rickk]

The ball needs to shave a bit of lead going into the cylinder to reduce the chance of a chain fire. It should not be a wrestling match however to get it to go in place.

28 grains probably won't blow it up, but 15 grains may be a lot more fun in the long one. Also, with hot loads you will have more problems with caps blowing off and jamming up the works.

There is nothing wrong with starting on the low side.

Manuals for imports can be funny at times. Sometimes they are produced by the manufacturer, and sometimes they are produced by the importer. Sometimes an importer may have a "generic manual" that they believe applies to many guns when in fact it applies to none of them very accurately.

[Mako]

OD,
That is an awfully light load for a .44 revolver.  15 to 21 grains is more like a Navy model round ball load(.36 caliber).

Be careful, the problem is not the light load, but whether or not you can seat a ball against the powder and compress it using your frame mounted loading rammer.  If you can seat a ball without a gap with at least light compression I'm sure it will work safely.

Someone else with experience shooting mouse loads in a .44 will have to help you here, 15 grains is half of what I normally shoot in a match.  I don't think I can seat a ball over 15 grains on any of my '60s using the barrel mounted loader, and 12 grains is super light for a .44.

Are you sure that the load you listed wasn't for a standard Pietta '51? That's a .36 caliber pistol.  I mean that is really less than what I use with round balls in my Navy models.

Someone will probably have some applicable experience.  Just keep waiting.

Regards,
Mako

[ODgreen]

OD,
That is an awfully light load for a .44 revolver.  15 to 21 grains is more like a Navy model round ball load(.36 caliber).

Be careful, the problem is not the light load, but whether or not you can seat a ball against the powder and compress it using your frame mounted loading rammer.  If you can seat a ball without a gap with at least light compression I'm sure it will work safely.

Someone else with experience shooting mouse loads in a .44 will have to help you here, 15 grains is half of what I normally shoot in a match.  I don't think I can seat a ball over 15 grains on any of my '60s using the barrel mounted loader, and 12 grains is super light for a .44.

Are you sure that the load you listed wasn't for a standard Pietta '51? That's a .36 caliber pistol.  I mean that is really less than what I use with round balls in my Navy models.

Someone will probably have some applicable experience.  Just keep waiting.

Regards,
Mako

The manual I found used that charge for a .454 ball. S0 maybe I'll experiment. THanks though.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As long as you can shave off some lead, either .451 or .454 balls should be OK. I find I can use either in my 44 cal Pietta Armies. Of course, your pistol may have chamber throats of slightly different diameters.

If your 44 has a brass frame, be careful with heavy loads. I have a very similar pistol, a brass framed 44 cal 'Navy' I bought way back in 1968. Too many hot loads over the years and I did stretch the frame. The barrel now points up noticeably when the wedge is driven to the correct position to narrow the barrel/cylinder gap down where it needs to be. I either stretched the frame, or pulled the arbor out somewhat, but the pistol is pretty much a wall hanger now.

I used to regularly put 30 grains of Goex FFFg in it, which eventually proved to be too much for the brass frame.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Just got a manual from Pietta and Cabela the other day.

What you indicate is what is in my manuals as well. I would go by the Cabela catalog.  Pietta only show 9 - 12 grains for the .36.

[Noz]

I talked to a Ruger shooter and he loads 15grs in his ROA for competition. I thought that if he could do it I could. Not the case. If you load with the on-board rammer you will need at least 20 grs of powder and an 1/8" wad to get good compression in a Pietta 44 cal.. Any less and you will get the double whomp of an uncompressed load. 
If you load off of the gun with a loading machine, then whatever works? I have no experience with loading machines.

[rickk]

Good point about the loading machine. I am using one with my Uberti.

I don't use the rammer on the gun much so I am not 100% sure what would happen if I did. My favorite load at the moment is 15 grains of 3F Goex (scale calibrated volumetric measure) with a lubed 1/8" felt wad. Hotter loads tend to cause problems in it with caps jamming.

[Mako]

I talked to a Ruger shooter and he loads 15grs in his ROA for competition. I thought that if he could do it I could. Not the case. If you load with the on-board rammer you will need at least 20 grs of powder and an 1/8" wad to get good compression in a Pietta 44 cal.. Any less and you will get the double whomp of an uncompressed load. 
If you load off of the gun with a loading machine, then whatever works? I have no experience with loading machines.

Yep, Noz is right.  Like I said can't be, it be done with an unmodified frame mounted loading plunger.

I didn't even talk about off frame loading (which is what I normally do) because our new friend obviously doesn't have such a loader.  I just know you can't load less than about 25 grains on the pistol with a round ball.  Conicals are longer and the plunger will reach.

I have seen pictures of Ruger shooters pistols have added extensions to their pistol's plunger to allow lighter charges.

~Mako

[ODgreen]

Went out and shot my first blackpowder firearm ever! I think I'm hooked. I only loaded and fired a total of 3 shots.( come on its 14 degrees out) I need to find a better way to measure powder, but I think it'll work better if I'm not shivering in the cold. I loaded 15 grains and used the loading lever on the revolver with the .454 ball. Loaded very easily. I had some trouble with the CCI #10 caps, as they are hard to seat and keep even. The recoil I would compare to a 9mm auto. So I'm hoping to experiment with the charge over the next few days. Thanks for all your help everyone!

[Crow Choker]

In my 44 Colts('60 Army and '51 44 cal Pietta) and Remington, I always shoot 28-30 grains of FFF, anything less seems to be a waste of time. My 2nd Model Dragoon gets 36-40 grains of FFF) I have one 36 cal '51 Navy Colt and 20-22 grains of FFF is the load. In the 44's, as stated by others, less than 20 grains might be tough to seat with the rammer, all my loading is by rammer, don't have any desire for the 'gizmo's' sold to off load-takes part of the fun of shooting away. Using 28-30 grains isnot a "Magnum" load. Many new to shooting black powder percussion revolvers have the idea they will be shooting "Dirty Harry" 44 mag type rounds. My wife, daughters, and my Dad who is 94 have shot my 44 cap and ball revolvers with no real problem. I've played around trying less and more than the 28-30 grain loads, but found nothing gained or lost.The 28-30 grain loads are accurate and pleasent to shoot, but if your revolver is brass framed, what has been mentioned about frame damage may be a factor. The idea of some to shoot 'mouse', 'marshmellow', 'poof-ting', etc loads in competition are letting themselves down for what shooting was and really is. I can understand some who may have physical restrictions and such, but when I see good healthy, physically capable men of the male gender shooting such rounds, well no written comment here. I didn't shoot such groups such as SASS in its early days, but from what I've read and heard, degrading to sub loads was one of the things that degraded it from 'what it use to be'(this'll probably raise the hair of some of ya, nothing personal). Pietta and Uberti in their manuels both list sub loads to cover themselves from shooters who don't follow safe shooting pracitices, their loads are way below the pressure tests they perform. ODGreen, if you can find a shooter in your area who has shot before, just ask him for help in loading, shooting , and cleaning-I'm sure they would be glad to help. A good book you can get on Amazon and other sources is "Percussion Pistols and Revolvers" by Mike Cumpston- a wealth of info on history, shooting, etc.

[ODgreen]

OK my light charge is not from "lack of manly attributes" so much as it is inexperience, caution and love of my extremities. I've worked my way up to 20 grains. My issues are : long term wear on a brass frame, and not blowing my face off. Right now I need to work on finding a funnel. Wife vetoed my earlier attempt at one.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Don't bother with the funnel. I have used this type of powder flask for years. The spout measures out the powder for you. You point it down at the ground and cover the end with your finger. Then you push the button which fills the spout with powder. Then you release the button and point it up again. You have a measured charge of powder waiting to be poured into a chamber. I think mine pours out about 30 grains of powder. If you want less powder, you cut the spout down. Once you get good at it you manipulate the flask while holding the pistol with the other hand. The flask will hold around 1/2 pound of powder, which should get you through a bunch of stages without having to fill it up again. Just be sure to empty the powder out of the flask when you are done, or the powder will attract moisture and corrode the dickens out of the flask. Ask me how I know.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=brass+powder+flask&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&resnum=1&biw=1024&bih=555&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5807914482810842387&ei=XR8ZTYK6HcT58AahzKHsDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAA#

Certainly 30 grains of powder behind a 44 cal ball is no magnum load. Think of it for a minute. With 45 Colt, I load somewhere around 38 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet. Now you are talking recoil. But a 44 cal round ball only weighs around 150 grains or so. Put 30 grains of powder behind it and you are shooting something about like a 38 Special. The other thing is, with a round ball, there is no mechanical crimp holding the ball in place. Only the friction fit of the ball in the chamber across a tiny section of the ball. So much less 'bullet pull' than with a cartridge.

I had not fired a 44 Cap & Ball for a long time when I picked up my Pietta Armies last year. With a 44 cal ball over 30 grains of powder the recoil is pretty much like a light 38 Special load. Certainly not a magnum.

I just think I would be a little bit careful of shooting 30 grains of powder in a brass framed gun a whole lot. It took a long time, but it did stretch the frame on my old brass 44 'Navy'.

[ODgreen]

So would it be fair to say that 20-25 grains is probably about right?

[Mako]

... I loaded 15 grains and used the loading lever on the revolver with the .454 ball. Loaded very easily. I had some trouble with the CCI #10 caps, as they are hard to seat and keep even. The recoil I would compare to a 9mm auto. ...

OK my light charge is not from "lack of manly attributes" so much as it is inexperience, caution and love of my extremities. I've worked my way up to 20 grains. My issues are : long term wear on a brass frame, and not blowing my face off. Right now I need to work on finding a funnel. Wife vetoed my earlier attempt at one.

OD,
I don't think you understand what we are telling you.  An undercharge can be MORE dangerous that filling the chamber up to the brim and seating a ball.  I mean that literally and very seriously.  You put 15 grains in and don't have the ball pushed down against it and you create the potential for detonation.  Black powder should have no air space. 

You seated the balls easily which is no surprise to any of us, my question is how do you know it was seated?  The only way for you to know is by putting something on top of the ball and use your lever again (don't use another ball).  Now compare that to a ball seated without a spacer.  If the spaced ball goes deeper it means you were bottoming out the loading lever on the barrel slot and not the ball compressing the powder.

Don't jump to the conclusion we were calling you wimpy for "unmanly" loads.  We were concerned you were creating a potential grenade by attempting to be "safe."  If you love your extremities, then you need to listen to the hundreds of years combined experience that have answered you so far.

We want you to keep your fingers, eyes, etc. as well.

Have fun but make sure you are really seating that ball.

Regards,
Mako

[hellgate]

Right now EMF company is running a special on powder flask spouts as advertized in the cowboy Chronicle. I think it is $5(or maybe $10 but I think $5 is correct) for an assortment of sizes. There ought to be a 20, 25, and 30gr spout and maybe even a 15gr one. That is the best deal I've ever seen. If I didn't already have a huge assortment already I'd spring for it.

[ODgreen]

OD,
I don't think you understand what we are telling you.  An undercharge can be MORE dangerous that filling the chamber up to the brim and seating a ball.  I mean that literally and very seriously.  You put 15 grains in and don't have the ball pushed down against it and you create the potential for detonation.  Black powder should have no air space. 

You seated the balls easily which is no surprise to any of us, my question is how do you know it was seated?  The only way for you to know is by putting something on top of the ball and use your lever again (don't use another ball).  Now compare that to a ball seated without a spacer.  If the spaced ball goes deeper it means you were bottoming out the loading lever on the barrel slot and not the ball compressing the powder.

Don't jump to the conclusion we were calling you wimpy for "unmanly" loads.  We were concerned you were creating a potential grenade by attempting to be "safe."  If you love your extremities, then you need to listen to the hundreds of years combined experience that have answered you so far.

We want you to keep your fingers, eyes, etc. as well.

Have fun but make sure you are really seating that ball.

Regards,
Mako

Mako,

I completely understand that. Trust me this is no manly chest thumping fit. I honestly don't know if its seated or not. I do know that it fired at 15 grains and at 20. I started with what the online Pietta manual told me. The manual my father has that actually goes with the revolver(don't ask me why the manual and revolver are seperate) says to use 28 grains of pyrodex. I'm just trying to find the safe charge that seats the ball correctly and won't send peices of brass into my face. I'm not overly worried about recoil, or anything. I just want to be safe. Thanks for all the help so far, and any more you can give.