45 Cowboy Special

[fourfingersofdeath]

Thanks fer that AJ! I kinda sorta don't wanna, if you get my drift. I would be probably better off selling my 45brass and buying a new lot. Does anyone sell it in Australia? Importing is a pita for a non dealer (it is pretty much a pita for a dealer as well I suppose). I can get on the phone and order a truckload of brass from anyone in Australia (and pay throught the nose ), but to import any amount from the states or anywhere else is a huge undertaking.

[Adirondack Jack]

Thanks fer that AJ! I kinda sorta don't wanna, if you get my drift. I would be probably better off selling my 45brass and buying a new lot. Does anyone sell it in Australia? Importing is a pita for a non dealer (it is pretty much a pita for a dealer as well I suppose). I can get on the phone and order a truckload of brass from anyone in Australia (and pay throught the nose ), but to import any amount from the states or anywhere else is a huge undertaking.

There is no official source for C45S downunder, as the US State Department is real nasty about export of brass or even gun parts valued above $100, requiring all manner of expensive licenses, etc.  However, when I get calls from folks outside the US, I have learned that they are very resourcefull in buying gun stuff.  I always ask "Do you have a seller in the US for guns and parts valued above $100 now?"  They often say they have somebody they deal with who exports those things to their country.  I reply "Well, if he's in the US I can always ship to him, if you and he make an arrangement to get the stuff shipped to you (maybe with yer next order from him, etc), yer in business.  C45S brass has made its way around the world, to bunches of countries in that manner, and continues to do so, as I still can't justify the hassle and expense of an export license.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

FFOD;  I googled & found these dealers in Australia listed by STARLINE themselves.  I checked "western firearms" & NIOA, but they didn't stock .45CS, at least at present.

Action Shooters Imports
68 Watkins Rd, Wangi Wangi
NSW Australia 2267
(26) 559-3322
asimportsptyltd@bigpond.com

Granite Arms P/L
75 High Street, Kangaroo Fla
3555 Bendigo, Victoria
Australia
(035) 447-7142
office@asiabrokers.com.au

Nioa Trading
P.O. Box 181
Banyo QLD 4014
Australia
61 736219999
g.jones@nioa.net.au

Tari Property Investments
PO Box 431
Millmerran, QLD 4357
Australia
617846952050
dfa75035@bigpond.net.au

[Adirondack Jack]

Sir Charles, that is because although Starline makes the brass, they do so as a custom case for Adirondack Jack's Trading Post, and do not sell or stock the case themselves.  Starline makes many rounds that do not bear a *---* headstamp, and are not DIRECTLY available through their dealers.

HOWEVER, anyone outside the US with an ongoing import/export relationship with one of those folks might be on the right track to acquire non-stock items (see my last post)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Its in stock in Canada, here;

http://www.doubletapsports.com/catalog/30/cowboy_45_special

[Mako]

Sir Charles,
It's not on their (DoubleTap's) Starline brass  page.  Since the artwork shown is from cowboy.45special.com, I would assume that they are buying it from Adirondack Jack.  I used to sell parts directly to larger shops in other countries if there weren't distributors for the area to keep the retail cost where it was supposed to be, I'm sure Jack is doing the same.

But, I'm sure Jack will tell us the same...or there will definitely be a flurry of phone calls to Missouri. 

Regards,
Mako

[fourfingersofdeath]

This is all begining to sound more trouble than its worth, which is a shame, it is great looking little cartridge.

[StrawHat]

If I did not say it previously, thank you all for the responses.  I have learned a good deal about the 45CS and appreciate the history of the cartridge and how it ties into the history of the earlier cartridges.  It never hurts to have a better understanding of hte whys and hows of a product.

[Cookie]

@Adirondack Jack - Just got my first bag of these little beauties today and I've already got 'em loaded up and ready to test tomorrow in my '63 Remington NMA conversions. I can't wait!

When I first saw these, I have to admit that I didn't give them much thought. But then I read that they were similar to the .44 Rimfire and that caught my attention.

It always bugged me when people complained about leverguns chambered in .45 Colt, but then have no problem with seeing a '66 in .44-40, when the exact same argument applies. The gun was never chambered in that caliber!!! (My specific area of interest is the immediate post Civil War era, 1866-1872.)

Now admittedly, the .45 Cowboy never existed back then, but at least it tries to emulate the ballistics of these earlier (and smaller) cartridges mentioned in this thread. And given the complete lack of any alternatives, I'm glad AJ took the risk he did to bring them to us.

When I realized that, I couldn't wait to get them since I love the 1866, but haven't bought one because of the mentioned lack of a "historical" '66. This round will fill that niche quite nicely. (AJ - you can expect at least one carrier order this summer, once I've saved all my dimes and nickels!)

[Cookie]

It was rejected because it was a modern case produced as a nod to the modern shooting sport of CAS in order to reduce the load of the .45colt.

RCJ

That might have been the reasoning, but as is obvious from this thread that is not the case. There are plenty of old & obscure rimfire and centerfire cases from that era that simply will never be reproduced due to a lack of commercial interest.

What Adirondack Jack did was IMO a stroke of genius. He tried to emulate the ballistic performance of many of these early cartridges (I believe there's been 4 mentioned in this thread alone) but he did so by copying existing (and popular) cartridges.

So, I now have a round that I can load using my existing .45 ACP dies, and load into my .45 Colt guns that matches the ballistics of the rounds those guns originally fired! How does that hurt our sport?

Now, if the reasoning truly was that "it was a modern case produced as a nod to the modern shooting sport of CAS" then why is .45 Colt allowed in NCOWS? The modern .45 Colt does not match the original. It is also a modern case and it was changed as a nod to modern shooters?

Or for that matter, why is ANY modern reproduction firearm allowed? No modern replica firearm I'm aware of is a carbon copy of the original. All have made at least changes to materials, if not dimensions, or even small design improvements. Therefore none of them are "historically accurate".

The obvious answer to my above queries is that these modern changes improve the original designs (especially in the area of safety & reliability) without compromising the spirit of historical accuracy. And (more importantly) if these modern reproductions werent allowed then NCOWS wouldn't exist because your potential audience is reduced by several orders of magnitude.

By allowing these compromises that are "in the spirit of the game" more people are inclined to participate and you end up helping to preserve history by a greater degree than if you had remained "historically pure".

[rhetorical hyperbole] As I said in my above post, if "historical accuracy" is the keystone, then NCOWS should ban each and every caliber / gun mismatch out there, starting with EVERY SINGLE Uberti '66 & modern conversion revolver. [/rhetorical hyperbole]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'd like to point out that I'm not a member of NCOWS (no posse in my state), so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I am an [amateur] historian, and I believe the best way to preserve our history is to allow people to live it in some small way. The more people that can participate the better we off we all are.

[Cuts Crooked]

Cookie,

As noted earlier, NCOWS tries hard to preserve "historical accuracy" as part of their heritage. The allowence of a few modern cartridges was/is a nod to the reality of what was availible to shooter when they started out to create their organization. There simply were no other options back then. I have noted, both in SASS and NCOWS a reluctance to ban an item that has previously been officially permitted, and this is probably because it would be unfair to disallow them and burdan those who already purchased items for the game before they were "disallowed".

At one time there was a large controversy over short stroked rifles in NCOWS. The short stroke kits were never officially allowed but many shooters installed them and used them. NCOWS addressed the issue finally and banned them, which caused some acrimony among shooters who had installed them. However....THEY WERE NEVER OFFICIALLY ALLOWED in the first place, unlike some of the cartridge/gun combinations  that were permitted when the game first got started.

As I said, I admire NCOWS stance in sticking as much as possible to historically accurate weapons/accouterments and I really enjoy shooting NCOWS when I can. But one must approch NCOWS with an understanding that they are NOT SASS and never will be. They are a unique shooting/reenacting disciplene with their own set of rules. A wonderful outfit to shoot with too! I suggest you stop in at the NCOWS forum here at CAS city and have a look around.

(just because I think they missed the boat on C45S doesn't mean that they are wrong  )

[Adirondack Jack]

Sir Charles,
It's not on their (DoubleTap's) Starline brass  page.  Since the artwork shown is from cowboy.45special.com, I would assume that they are buying it from Adirondack Jack.  I used to sell parts directly to larger shops in other countries if there weren't distributors for the area to keep the retail cost where it was supposed to be, I'm sure Jack is doing the same.

But, I'm sure Jack will tell us the same...or there will definitely be a flurry of phone calls to Missouri.  

Regards,
Mako

Doubletap Sports in Canada did buy a bunch from me, after arranging their export from the US via a cooperative license holder.  I dpon't know if he still has any in stock at this time, but for any canadian pards, he's one to call.   Please don't call Starline.  They will be happy to give you my phone number, but that's as far is they are involved in the distribution.  They make em, I stock em and sell em.