Bad shot shell primmers?

[will52100]

Just had an issue with some black powder shot shells.  I loaded a batch up last night and they shot fine.  The primmers been sitting in my press for a couple months in the house.  The ones I had trouble with were loaded a couple months ago from the same batch of primmers.  When I cut one of the shells open it looked like the end of the primmer was coroded.  Is the black powder sitting against the primmer causing a problem?  The powder was dry and no lube contamination from the fiber wads eigther.  The primmers were CCI's.


Thanks

[Mako]

Will,
Had these shotshells ever had BP in them?  And if not were they ever washed?

~Mako

[hellgate]

Was the seal on the primer flash hole broken? If I remember my primers, there is a clear  hard seal on the CCIs and a paper one on the WWs. Sometimes they don't go off 'cause they are seated deeper in the case and you get a light strike. I the seal is broken then maybe the priming compound fizzled. I've had misfires with Federal primers and Winchester cases in my SXS 311 but not Remington hulls. I shoot BP 12 ga all the time and the only other problems I've had duds was shooting up ancient loads from the 1950s-60s which were smokeless.

[litl rooster]

. Sometimes they don't go off 'cause they are seated deeper in the case and you get a light strike.

I've had many not fire due to light pin or hammer strike.  Did you try a second pull of the trigger or a different weapon?

[will52100]

Actualy tried two differant shot guns, one sxs and an 87'.  Deep firing pin indents, and multiple strikes.  The primers are dead.

Realy iritating on the last stage to have 4 misses because non of your shot shells will go off.

[Claypipe]

Just had an issue with some black powder shot shells.  I loaded a batch up last night and they shot fine.  The primmers been sitting in my press for a couple months in the house.  The ones I had trouble with were loaded a couple months ago from the same batch of primmers.  When I cut one of the shells open it looked like the end of the primmer was coroded.  Is the black powder sitting against the primmer causing a problem?  The powder was dry and no lube contamination from the fiber wads eigther.  The primmers were CCI's.


Thanks

Is your loading bench near an air conditioner? Where were your corroded primer shells stored? Reason being if the shells were loaded in an air conditioned enviroment, then stored, say, in a warm vehicle, humidity in the shells could condense, add that with the sacred darkness and your primers could become corroded and die.

Seen similar problems with muzzleloaders, when loaded in extreme cold and then brought indoors over night. The sacred darkness would turn to mud.

CP

[Mako]

Actualy tried two differant shot guns, one sxs and an 87'.  Deep firing pin indents, and multiple strikes.  The primers are dead.

Realy iritating on the last stage to have 4 misses because non of your shot shells will go off.

Will,
We're trying to help you diagnose the source of the problem.  You're not answering all of our questions.. Hellgate and I are trying to get to the source, can you review those questions and give us some more information.

It is a disappointing feeling when it goes "click."  

Best to ya pard,
Mako

[Yakima Red]

Just a thought. Where were your hulls stored? Did you bring them from a cold enviroment and then load them in a warm room? What I'm getting at is the corrosion on the primer. Could moisture been in the base wad of the hull? I never load hulls that have been sitting on the ground. While I'm a king size dumpster diver when it comes to hulls, I'm careful when it comes to moisture. It can hide in the base wad for a long time.

[will52100]

The hulls were stored in the house for over a years, and it is air conditioned.  The condensation issue is a posibility.  I normaly store the loaded hulls in a dry boxy shot gun box.  But I have been to a couple matches and the box was exposed to summer/fall temps and now it's winter.  The loading is done indoors as well.  It's normily fairly dry indoors though.  The hulls are winchester AA, the red ones.  As best I can tell the seal is still in place. 

The primmers are normaly stored in a dry box, but lately I've been leaving them in the loading press.  Never had an issue till now.  In fact the ones I loaded the night before fired without issue.

I went out and shot up the rest of the batch, about 30 rounds, and only a couple fired.  The ones that fired had a slight hesitation to them.

If condensation is the issue what can I do to eliminate it?  I'm wondering if with the humidity changes we get here if the hulls sucked moister into them?  The powder was dry.  The corosion on the face of the primmer was pretty mild.

Thanks

[Mako]

Will,
I asked this before, but were  these hulls ever used for BP?  I use both AAs and Remington STS hulls and I have experienced some rust in the primer pockets  that I have previously used for BP loads.  These were never washed, just reloaded.  The corrosion hasn't caused any ignition problems to date (knock on wood).

I primarily use Remington gold hulls for my BP loads to keep them separated from my kids smokeless loads on the cart (plus I like the look  ).  I can get 3 to 4 reloadings from a Remington case and usually that many from a Win AA.  After the outside begins to get rough as the outer "skinning" (which is a correct plastic molding term) has been re-melted from the high heat generated by BP, I chuck them.  The rough exterior makes them hard to shuck after firing.  In the past I used to have hulls used for clays that would last until the mouths split at the crimps.  I can't get that many reloads from shooting Black Powder loads, probably as much as an order of magnitude less.

I have seen corrosion in both brands of hulls and what clued me in was seeing the ends of the spent primers in the catch tray.  I started looking in the pockets of some of the hulls after primer removal and saw corrosion at the pocket bottom and in the flash hole.  I reloaded them anyway and didn't have any problems.  I have found if I leave my shotgun hulls in the bag we keep empty brass and hulls in from the range for a protracted period of time there is a greater likelihood of getting corrosion on the exterior of the "brass" base.  I chuck those because they prevent good extraction, plus they look bad (just ain't right...).

There is definitely a connection between moisture and the BP with the level of discoloration on the metal of the hull and outright corrosion.  I have had hulls left in the bed of the truck overnight in a bag or box and the humidity has made everything a bit damp on the exterior of the containers.  Every cartridge case and most hulls look BAD after even one night.

I have tried washing hulls with mixed results.  Usually it just makes a nasty mess and the metal discolors heavily.  Unless you have de-primed the hulls before washing  you are going to get corrosion in the primer pockets if you let the hulls sit for any period of time.  I find it is just too much effort to de-prime them and then wash them.  I would probably change my tune if I couldn't buy once fired hulls from BPI for 9 cents a hull.  I have tried tossing the hulls in a vibratory cleaner to freshen the base and the plastic portion comes out nasty looking.  The best success I have had to date is tossing the hulls in corncob media (NO ABRASIVES) and tumbling them for about 30 minutes which just gets the BP residue off of the exterior.  I don't think it's worth the effort.

I probably reload BP shotshells about once every 2 months, 12 boxes will hold me for two months unless one of the clubs has a "no whining match" which entails a minimum of 8 shotgun targets per stage.

I currently set the progressive shotshell  press up for the girls smokeless loads only once or twice a year.  We go through a garbage bag of hulls and they are set.  The smokeless hulls just keep accumulating.

I said at the top I use Gold Remignton STS hulls for BP, if I had it to do over again I would probably reverse it because I can pick up a couple boxes of once fired AAs at every match I attend without even trying.  The majority of the shooters are shooting the Win. Low recoil/low report loads and don't reload.  That way I would just use the hulls once and then toss them.

The rust problem you are experiencing is the result of the hull bases being plated steel.  The rust is a symptom of a problem which we have yet to determine.  If it is just corrosion from the direct contact with BP and just the humidity in the atmosphere that is one thing.  If it is a symptom of condensate forming because of temperature differentials on the case and the atmosphere you may be getting the primers killed or weakened by moisture.  If you have been washing cases or leaving them in an environment where they get moisture on them before loading it could be killing the primers.

My chemist is already on Christmas vacation, when he gets back I'll ask him if he thinks the corrosion started in a pocket from BP contact will migrate to the primer and then propagate to the priming compound.

All the best ,
Mako

[will52100]

Thanks, I ment to mention that maybe 1 or 2 were previously loaded with black, but for the most part they were all once fired win AA's.  Like you I can pick a couple boxes of them up at a match with out even trying.  The ones I'm loading now were picked up after a match a couple of years or so ago and put in a 5 gallon bucket and kept in the house.  Any that showed signs of corosion around the primmer were left at the range.

The base of the shot shell isn't corroded, it's the very end of the primmer itself.  Not real heavy eigther, just some discoloration.

Is there a "preminum" shot shell primer that would work better?  I don't mind spending extra on shot shell primers as I don't shoot much shot gun ammo, like you said, a box or two at most every month.

Thanks

[Mako]

Will,
For BP I pretty much use Winchester 209s and Remington 209 Premier Primers interchangeably, they are basically the same cost.  I use the recommended primers in the load data for smokeless loads since the chamber pressures take the primer into consideration, but for BP it's a non-issue.

To tell the truth, I will use almost anything (it's my Scottish half coming out...) I found a few trays of very old (probably 20 to 30 years) Federal and CCI primers last year when we moved and I used those.  They worked fine.  I went through a partial case of CCI 209Ms that I had not loaded with since I quit reloading for waterfowling. They worked too.

I was working with a friend a few months ago teaching him about reloading and we were  calculating the cost of reloads.  He wanted to buy some European primers that were less than $30 a case as opposed to over $40 for Winchester or Remington.  I asked him if it was worth 25 cents a box, because they were an unknown for me.  They would probably work fine, but he was already buying reclaimed shot and trying to eke out the last dime in a box of shells.  I understand the sentiments because things have gotten expensive.  I told him primers were probably not where he should scrimp.

CCI makes quality products, there has to be a reason for your problems.

Regards,
Mako

[Yakima Red]

I use a lot of Winchester 209's. I have a lot of 16 gauge that I loaded many years ago and they always work. I use mainly 12 gauge, so the 16's languish for many moons. I can't remember the last time I had a misfire in any shotshell flavor. I suspect this is one of those "weird stuff happens."

It could be nothing more than a bad batch of primers. Weird but plausable.

Load safe and keep us updated.

[Noz]

Since I started loading black powder I have gone to the theory that cheaper is better on components. Any primer will do.  A friend is using Wolf 209s with no problems. In fact he says he likes them better as the seem to fit into the base of the shell better.

An example: I recently had the opportunity to buy 3500 Alcan large pistol primers. Maybe 20 years old? They all go boom. And $1.20/hundred.

[Mako]

Noz,
The information on the Wolf primers is good to have.  I have read on different forums that people were having problems with Wolf primers in pistol and rifle calibers.  These weren't CAS forums.  They were mainly having problems with pocket diameters and certain brands of brass.  I may have to try some, for a while Wolf was about the only thing available.

As you have read in the post above  I'm like you, I'll shoot anything in BP.  My friend was loading smokeless and I was explaining how the smokeless loads are hull/wad/powder/weight and primer based.  You had to match them if you wanted to stay at the pressures and velocities the loading tables called out.  Trying to find applicable loading data was tough when you started going to obscure components.

Ahhhh... ain't it great to shoot the True Powder?

Hey, if you want to make a profit, I'll pay you half agin' as much for those Alcan primers you have...

Regards,
Mako

[will52100]

Thanks, it's bugging me, but I'll get over it.  Could have been a bad batch, or partial bad batch.  What bugs me is I've been reloading shot shells for several years, haven't changed a thing on storeing or loading, or even components.