What are 4th generation Colts?

[Hungarian]

I heard the term 4th generation to describe colts for the first time. i know about the 3rd, but what are these 4th's? What changes were made ?

[Texas John Ringo]

No such animal, it's what "some" call the present 3rd Gen guns, which have a removable cylinder bushing.
Colt collectors do not call them 4th Generation.

[OKDEE]

I agree with Johnny Ringo,   

It has been traditional for Colts to have a significant event(s) occur, before calling a new generation.  Although there were many small and important changes, throughout the Colt 1st Generation era from 1873 to about 1941, they ( those called Company officials of COLT, historians and experts ) did not even call it the 1st Generation Colt ....yet !  Production ended in 1941-42, and then the War occurred.  Somewhere in 1956, Colt started up production of the Single Action Service revolver, again.  Those Colts before that date, became Pre-War or 1st Generation Colts.  The new production was deemed 2nd Generation Colts, which ran from about 1956 to 1975.  Then another "Major changes(s)" began in 1976, one of which encurred the wrath of myself and others.  The cylinder was made without a removeable bushing!  This became the 3rd Generation.   I am not sure, but this may have been somewhat of a limited production.  Then Colt began, somewhere maybe in late 1990's, making the cylinder with the removeable bushing again!  Yeah!  I think most folks, and I use that term very loosely, call these the late 3rd Generations.  Only time will really tell.  Gotta wait until another major event/change occurs and the blessing of the historians and experts to call em the 4th generation Colt!   
Also,
I think due to marketing ideas, a newer generation usually indicated a better product, and hence, those selling Colts from the late 1990's, are attempting to make them seem the best to date.  They may very well be correct.  To each, his/her own.  That is a personal opinion and in some circles, a  bit of a heated discussion!   

Merry Christmas

[Shotgun Franklin]

When they 1st came out many called the Colt Cowboy a 4th generation but the gun and the generation both kinda flopped.

[Grizzly Adams]

Just an aside, but does Colts even distinguish between the "generations?"  I know collectors do, but does Colts?

[Pettifogger]

Just an aside, but does Colts even distinguish between the "generations?"  I know collectors do, but does Colts?

Yes they do.   They have to as several parts don't interchange.  For example, the barrel threads on a 3rd are a different TPI than the 1st or 2nds.

[Grizzly Adams]

Yes they do.   They have to as several parts don't interchange.  For example, the barrel threads on a 3rd are a different TPI that the 1st or 2nds.

Thanks, Larsen.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

To date, the only event that has separated one generation from another has been a complete stop in production.  

[Shotgun Franklin]

I kinda wondered why they don't consider the new black powder frame a new generation but then it would mean Colt would be producing 3rd and 4th at the same time? I'm not into collecting guns so the only thing that ever mattered to me was if a gun was made during the Old West time period or not.

[nichtmussolini]

Yes they do.   They have to as several parts don't interchange.  For example, the barrel threads on a 3rd are a different TPI than the 1st or 2nds.

I have a Colt SAA from the first and the second generation. I am a reloader, so I can see, the diameter of the chamber differs.
A cartridge for the first generation does not fit the 2`nd generation, its too thick.  And watch the firing pin, 1`st generation:
a fixed cone, 2`nd generation: the firing pin is flexible. If you like, I will send pictures.
Happy New Year
Heinz

[St. George]

From 1873 until 1905, the firing pin had a cone-shaped point.

After 1905 - they were concave.

All were held in place by a rivet - and in the case of the rimfire calibers - two.

The 'generational' difference arose after production resumed - post WWII - thanks due in large part to the popularity of Westerns on both the large and small screens.

The so-called 'Third Generation' came about in 1978, when the cylinder bushing was made as a press-fit and the hand and bolt were cast and machined, instead of forged, and barrel threads were changed, as well.

Serial numbers began with the prefix 'SA'.

The writings of popular gun writer Skeeter Skelton have been credited with creation of a public demand for Colt to continue production, and he wrote numerous articles on the 'new' Colts.

Today's new-production Colts now feature a removeable barrel bushing, and are great revolvers and are a continuation of the Third generational line.

Colt differentiates by serial number, by the way.

The 'Colt Cowboy' was a collaboration with the Czech arms industry to compete with the various clones.

It did not do well - folks expected more from Colt...

John Taffin (aka - 'Sixgunner') referenced this collaboration a number of years ago - as did many other gun writers - all of whose articles can be readily found on the web.

Bolts and hands 'can' be fitted to earlier production - barrels no, because of the thread measurement.

Today's modern-made factory ammunition 'will' fit earlier revolvers just fine.

If it didn't - then CAS may never have been born - nor cartridges like .38-40 and .44-40 never resurrected.

Ref: 'Colt Peacemaker Encyclopedia' by Cochran and 'A Study of the Colt single Action Army Revolver' - by Graham, Kopec and Moore.

Both books are highly recommended for review and addition to your own libraries.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[nichtmussolini]

From 1873 until 1905, the firing pin had a cone-shaped point.

After 1905 - they were concave.

All were held in place by a rivet - and in the case of the rimfire calibers - two.

The 'generational' difference arose after production resumed - post WWII - thanks due in large part to the popularity of Westerns on both the large and small screens.

The so-called 'Third Generation' came about in 1978, when the cylinder bushing was made as a press-fit and the hand and bolt were cast and machined, instead of forged, and barrel threads were changed, as well.

Serial numbers began with the prefix 'SA'.

The writings of popular gun writer Skeeter Skelton have been credited with creation of a public demand for Colt to continue production, and he wrote numerous articles on the 'new' Colts.

Today's new-production Colts now feature a removeable barrel bushing, and are great revolvers and are a continuation of the Third generational line.

Colt differentiates by serial number, by the way.

The 'Colt Cowboy' was a collaboration with the Czech arms industry to compete with the various clones.

It did not do well - folks expected more from Colt...

John Taffin (aka - 'Sixgunner') referenced this collaboration a number of years ago - as did many other gun writers - all of whose articles can be readily found on the web.

Bolts and hands 'can' be fitted to earlier production - barrels no, because of the thread measurement.

Today's modern-made factory ammunition 'will' fit earlier revolvers just fine.

If it didn't - then CAS may never have been born - nor cartridges like .38-40 and .44-40 never resurrected.

Ref: 'Colt Peacemaker Encyclopedia' by Cochran and 'A Study of the Colt single Action Army Revolver' - by Graham, Kopec and Moore.

Both books are highly recommended for review and addition to your own libraries.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

St. Georg you are quit right, but I was talking of another fact.

[nichtmussolini]

St. Georg you are quite right, but I was talking about another facht. You can see 4 pictures, the 1. shows you my 1. generation
SAA, manufactured in 1904, later on sent to Mexico whre I bought it in the 1970. (It was a part of the Pancho Villa uprise)
You can see the fixed cone firing pin.
My 2. model SAA  (the nickel plated one)was made in 1971, watch the flexible firing pin and the removeable bushing.
sincerely yours
Heinz

[Old Doc]

Does anyone know when quality returned to the Colt SAA line? Was it a certain serial number range or did it coincide with the return of the removable cylinder bushing. I think we can agree that current manufacture is top notch but when did it start to turn around? I'm real leery buying any third generation gun, unless I know how recent it is.  I remember going to my dealer to buy a Colt SAA in the late seventies or early eighties. He must have had 15 or more SAA in stock. We went through about 5 boxes before finding one with no obvious flaws. On one, the back of the ejection rod housing overlapped the frame by about an eighth of an inch. On another a walnut grip had a deep gouge from some errant tool. Lord knows what the cylinder gaps or other internal defects there were. Ever since, I have been leery of those cheap brown boxes with "Union Made" on the end flaps.

[St. George]

When Colt was purchased by the UAW - QC dropped off exponentially.

Only after numerous complaints - and a few new machines - did the Custom Shop take over the line.

That was in the late '70's - early '80's. and there are some 'very' nice-but-undervalued Single Action Armies out there, with folks afraid to buy them because of a perceived loss of quality.

All I can say about that is to really look over any potential purchase - you may be quite surprised.

As to the current production - they're nice - nicer than any of the much-vaunted 'Second Generation Colts I've seen or owned, even.

So are some late-production 'solid cylinder bushing' revolvers (description used as a quick identifier - 'not' as any sort of collector descriptor) - but you have to look carefully, since Colt will not square them away as before.

At the time (and later) the problems you described could and would be fixed by Colt if the weapon was returned - but those walnut grips were a joke, unless you used a Dark Walnut stain on them to make them look like they belonged there.

Incidentally - some 'smiths will remove that short, press-fit cylinder pin bushing and install a full-length one.

Does it make the weapon 'better'?

That's for the user to decide.

Vaya,

Scouts out!

[nichtmussolini]

Dear Hungarian there are only 3 generations in manufaccturing, but 4 generations in different serial numbers:
1. Generation - only numerary, no letters  XXXXX, production was stopt in 1941.
2. Generation - started in 1956,removable bushing, serial numbers XXXXXSA, quitted in 1975.
3. Generation - started in 1976,no removable bushing, serial numbers SAXXXXX, when reaching the serial number SA 99 999,
                      about 1978,Colt started with the serial number S00 001A - this is called the (false) 4. Generation.
Good luck
Heinz

[Old Doc]

Dear Hungarian there are only 3 generations in manufaccturing, but 4 generations in different serial numbers:
1. Generation - only numerary, no letters  XXXXX, production was stopt in 1941.
2. Generation - started in 1956,removable bushing, serial numbers XXXXXSA, quitted in 1975.
3. Generation - started in 1976,no removable bushing, serial numbers SAXXXXX, when reaching the serial number SA 99 999,
                      about 1978,Colt started with the serial number S00 001A - this is called the (false) 4. Generation.
Good luck
Heinz

According to Kuhnnhausen's book on the Colt SAA, the revolvers with the SA prefix ran from 1978-1993. Revolvers with the S in front of the number and the A at the back of the number began in 1993 not 1978.
My original question was, is there a serial number range where the quality began to improve?

[St. George]

In short - no.

Sorry 'bout that...

If there were - can you imagine the prices on those?

A careful inspection will always be your best bet.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[nichtmussolini]

Old Doc sorry, but in this case Mr. Kuhhausen is wrong, I`ve asked COLT`s about the serial numbers , 1978 is  correct, in this year
they started the serial numbers SXXXXXA. It IS because of the serial numbers: For the 2. and 3. generation COLT never overruns
the serial number 99 9999, so they have to create a new configuration. That mean, you can have a 2.generation SAA with
serial number SA XXXXX, but also one with serial number SXXXXXA.
The quality of 1. and 2. generation is very high, with the 3. generation COLT started some simplifications, f.i. no removable
bushing, and so on.
Best regards
Heinz

[Old Doc]

Heinz, if you stop and think about it, it doesn't make sense that Colt would have made 99,999 single actions between 1976 and 1978.