Black powder Measurement: by Weight or Volume

[Grapeshot]

  60 grains weighed, of Goex BLACK POWDER is gioing to fill a container/dipper with a 60 grains by volumn because it is BLACK POWDER.  Any other substitute, be it Pyrodex, AAP, 777 or Pinacle that is put into that measuring dipper/scoop that's marked for 60 grains of BLACK POWDER is going to give the equilavent power, +/-, of the weighed charge of 60 Grains of BLACK POWDER.

You won't get 60 grains of weight of any of the above mentioned substiutes, but you will be within a grain or two of that 60 grain weight if you use BLACK POWDER in that scoop / dipper.

I can use the Lee Dipper for 4.0 cc's for reloading my shotgun hulls with BLACK POWDER and get the same results, all else being equal, by using that same dipper for any of the Subs in those same hulls.  Works the same in pistol or rifle rounds as well.

I know that out of my Lee 2.5 cc dipper, Goex FFg BLACK POWDER will drop a weight of 42 grains.  What it throws with the subs is immaterial weight wise.  I have the volumnetric measure that will allow me to load equilavent loads using that dipper and any of the subs.

I hope I've cleared this matter for all involved.

[john boy]

Any other substitute, be it Pyrodex, AAP, 777 or Pinacle that is put into that measuring dipper/scoop that's marked for 60 grains of BLACK POWDER is going to give the equilavent power, +/-, of the weighed charge of 60 Grains of BLACK POWDER.

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.
http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

[rickk]

Just to stir the pot a bit...

60 grains of 2 F will occupy a bit more space than 60 grains of 4F, and a bit less volume than 1F.

If you pour 60 grains into a container, and it fills it exactly to the top, and you tap the contained a few times, the stuff will have settled and it will now allow you to add a bit more.

Drop tubes are routinely used on Black Powder measures to get more powder into the same space.

Courser grains (like 1F or cannon grade) do not measure very well with a volumetric measure. This is especially true with smaller charges. If you try to measure out 100 grains of 1 F with a volumetric measure, and get within 5 grains every time, you will be doing way better than I have ever been able to. If you try it with cannon grade, +-10 grains out of 100 grains will be doing really good. On the flip side, 4F is extremely easy to measure repeatably by volume.

I found that powder measure shape makes a difference as far as repeatability. Measures that are roughly the same diameter as length seem to throw more repeatable charges.

I understand where John Boy is going as far as weighing out subs by volume, and I am in 100% agreement with it. Absolutely no argument with it at all. Complete concurrence. They make the stuff that way because most people are going to be measuring by volume rather than weight. It simply makes everyone's life easier to use it by volume, so they make it have the same equivalent power per volume. Just that there is some margin for error as far as "calibrating" a measure and declaring it to be a measurement of so many grains of BP.  It is probably safe to assume that subs intended for rifle are roughly calibrated against 2F BP, not 4F or cannon grade.

There is still the variation in pouring technique.

Fortunately for us all, black powder is forgiving enough that such accurate measurement is needed to remain safe. 10% over with 2F isn't going to blow a gun up. 10% over a max load with Red Dot might.

As far as extreme accuracy goes, repeatability is way more important than accuracy. Pour the measure the same way. Tap it level the same way. Level the excess off the same way, and you will get more close to the same amount every time. If that same amount every time is actually 57 grains or 63 grains, as far as pressures go I wouldn't personally loose much sleep over it. If you are shooting at 100 yards, getting 57 grains verses 63 grains is going to affect things a noticeable amount.

It doesn't hurt to gain insight by taking your favorite "60 grain" BP measure and measure 10 charges of BP in a row by volume from it, and then weigh each one on a scale as well. Try it a second time the next day, and then try it again a week later. Try it again with another can from a different lot. Try it once more with a can from a different manufacturer.  Write what happens each time down and look at it. This exercise isn't designed to loose too much sleep over, but to know what variation your measure and your technique and even the powder itself will produce. If you are shooting shotguns at steel plates 20 feet away, and your technique gives you +-10% variation, the variation isn't going to be your excuse for why you missed 2 out of 4 plates. On the other hand, if you are trying to a 1" group at 100 yards, +-10% is going to kill you and you need to look into things a bit more.

And then, once you know you have a perfect "60 grain" powder measure, you will be all set to shoot subs with confidence, or not

Yes, for most cowboy shooting none of this all matters. Extreme accuracy is not needed. Only reasonable accuracy is needed.  The only reason I am rambling here is to make a point that in some applications there are variations that can affect the outcome, and that by being aware of them they can possibly be minimized.

And, for what it's worth, on the total opposite side of the spectrum, with really big stuff (BP cannons), the charges (which are pretty much always 1F or Cannon grade BP) are always measured with a scale. The big grains don't measure well at all by volume, and if there is a serious charge error the results can be spectacular, in a really bad way.

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, and cuz it's what I do, I measure my Holy Black in cubic centimeters.  That's cuz my measures are all graduated in cc measurements as well as my LEE dipper set.  I'm thinkn' that most bp shooters that load at their bench will be using cc rather than square inch measurements.  Metric wins again.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

I hope I've cleared this matter for all involved.

Howdy

Didn't know there was any confusion. I've been doing it that way for years.

However, I must quibble just a little tiny bit. Not all brands of Black Powder weighs exactly the same. I keep pretty good records of my powder charges and I do weigh ten throws every once in a while, just to make sure. My standard charge for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC (yes Dick, I use CC too). When I used to shoot Goex FFg, 2.2CC came out to about 34.5 grains. When I was using the now defunct Elephant brand, 2.2CC came out to about 37.5 grains. My current favorite, Schuetzen FFg comes to about 33.5 grains out of a 2.2CC dipper.

I don't adjust anything for CAS, I use that same 2.2CC. It gives me the amount of compression that I want.

I suppose if I ran these different charges over a chronograph, there would probably be a small difference in velocity. But for my purposes, it is good enough.

[Noz]

I have wrestled with this for several years since I got into black powder seriously.
I have finally settled on a plan that works for me. I determine a volume and a granulation that works for my current purpose. I take that volume and put it on a scale. The scale weight becomes my working number. I then find a measure that will throw that scale weight of powder consistently.  I use that volume measurement for all loading of that particular cartridge or chamber until a new breeze blows through and I try something new.
I always know that I can go back to the scale and duplicate the load regardless of the configuration of the measure.

[rebsr52339]

I have wrestled with this for several years since I got into black powder seriously.
I have finally settled on a plan that works for me. I determine a volume and a granulation that works for my current purpose. I take that volume and put it on a scale. The scale weight becomes my working number. I then find a measure that will throw that scale weight of powder consistently.  I use that volume measurement for all loading of that particular cartridge or chamber until a new breeze blows through and I try something new.
I always know that I can go back to the scale and duplicate the load regardless of the configuration of the measure.

NOZ, couldn't have said it better. Been shooting BP sense the mid 50s and Dixie's catalog and several books on the matter were my tutors. You guys always give out the best advice to chew on.

[Cuts Crooked]

Ah.... the old "volume/weight" discussion!

I'm gonna get some popcorn ready. 

[Bryan Austin]

Howdy

Didn't know there was any confusion. I've been doing it that way for years.

However, I must quibble just a little tiny bit. Not all brands of Black Powder weighs exactly the same. I keep pretty good records of my powder charges and I do weigh ten throws every once in a while, just to make sure. My standard charge for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC (yes Dick, I use CC too). When I used to shoot Goex FFg, 2.2CC came out to about 34.5 grains. When I was using the now defunct Elephant brand, 2.2CC came out to about 37.5 grains. My current favorite, Schuetzen FFg comes to about 33.5 grains out of a 2.2CC dipper.

I don't adjust anything for CAS, I use that same 2.2CC. It gives me the amount of compression that I want.

I suppose if I ran these different charges over a chronograph, there would probably be a small difference in velocity. But for my purposes, it is good enough.

Driftwood says it all....again!! I lern't what I know from him 

[ZVP]

 Woa!
I thought that powder measures measure by VOLUME not weight!
ie:  for "real Black Powder a 35 gr fill dosen't necessarily weigh 35 gr, it is just a volume equivelent to a 35 gr load.
If you load Pyrodex or 777 then the manufacturer tells you how much to reduce the volume to equal the afore mentioned load of BP.
The reduction in volume is to allow for the hotter substitute powder charge, making it equilivent to the BP load and to maintain a safety margin.
The measured volume is only an aproximation for field shooting. If you want to throw an exact charge by weight you need a scale not a dipper or volume measure.
One more thing I must say is that if you load in a safe manner, you will pour from your flask into a seperate volume powder measure, then pour the powder into the cylinder or down the bbl. This will prevent a possible hot glowing ember from igniting the flask and blowing your arm off or killing you and maybe someone else.
Most powders will measure out light if you measure by volume and you will be on the safe side providing that you use the proper granulation for your gun. It's better to load light than heavy!
ZVP

[Ranch 13]

Woa!
I thought that powder measures measure by VOLUME not weight!

ZVP

Nope. The research to proove that as being wrong is a easily available as the Sharps, Remiington and Winchester catalogs from the 1870. There are severl books avialable on line thru Google that explain the importance of weighing powder charges. (they were talking about black as there was no other powder avialable at the time) Moving up a few decades the Ideal loading manuals covered loading blackpowder, and in those books they specifically Ideal/Lyman specifically state that blackpowder charges are alwasy expressed in grains or drams.
Even hodgdons at the beginning of pyrodex stated that that stuff was made to shoot in the volume equiviilant of a black powder measure set to thru x amount of grains weight

[Bryan Austin]

pyrodex stated that that stuff was made to shoot in the volume equiviilant of a black powder measure set to thru x amount of grains weight

Because BP subs are lighter in weight than real BP

[Ranch 13]

Yup roughly 10-15% lighter. They used to include a chart in the freebie handout manuals that told what the actual weight in grains would be of pyrodex , when poured from a measure set for x amount of grains weight black powder. Without going and digging one out it seems that a measure set to dump 70 grs of 2f would pour something like 56 or 57 grs of RS.

[john boy]

This Wire discussion thread was deleted and supected it would happen because a fella started posting loading data.  Here it is again:

Gentlemen, the method of discussion of measuring original gun powder (volume v weight) will linger for every unless one gets some basic definitions in place ...
* The gram (also gramme in British English),[1] (Greek/Latin root grámma); symbol g, is a unit of mass.
Originally defined as "the absolute weight of a volume of pure water equal to the cube of the hundredth part of a metre, and at the temperature of melting ice"[2] (later 4 °C), a gram is now defined as one one-thousandth of the SI base unit, the kilogram, or 1×10−3 kg, which itself is defined as being equal to the mass of a physical prototype preserved by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures. This is important so NOTE it!
* 1 gram (g) = 15.4323583529 grains (gr)
Now, I want each who has a 100 'grain' volumetric measure to fill it up with pure distilled water to the 100 gr mark and scale weigh it. You will find that it weighs 100 grains. This is important, so NOTE it and make sure the miniscus is exactly at the 100 line!
* Both grains and drams are based on the The avoirdupois (pronounced /ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/; French pronunciation: [avwaʁdypwɑ]) system is a system of weights (or, properly, mass) based on a pound of sixteen ounces. Note the word mass and there are 7,000 grains per pound

OK, there are various Volumetric measures, ie the Thompson Contender 100 gr measure and the Lee Dippers. But they are both based on grain scale weight

When Fairshake states the various calibers, ie 45-70, the 45 being the caliber and the 70 being the weight, the 70 relates to 70/100 of a volumetric measure defined again as "the absolute weight of a volume of pure water equal to the cube of the hundredth part of a metre" which when scale weighed equals 100 grains and in the example 45-70 is 70 grains by scale weight!

Now, using the term - measuring powder by volume, it is 70grs by mass which is an avoirdupois measurement of mass not a measurement of volume which is based how much three-dimensional space a substance (solid, liquid, gas, or plasma) or shape occupies or contains

OK, how did Winchester and UMC charge the 45-70 cases with '70' grains. They used machinery that had drop tubes which were calibrated to drop grains of powder by scale weight based on the above definition and calculation of a gram ... "the absolute weight of a volume of pure water equal to the cube of the hundredth part of a metre" where 100 grains of pure water in a volumetric measure has a scale weight of 100 grains. BTW, this is a standard industry test to determine the density of all black powder and all nitro based 'smokeless' powders. The vendors don't tell us the density of their 'smokeless' powders (again based on the measurement of a gram), but buy a copy of Propellants Profile and the densities are listed for nearly every powder on the market today.

QUOTE
Any commercial loading of Black Powder in cartridges was ALWAYS done volumetrically, not with weighed charges, no different than dumping Smokeless powder today which is also done volumetrically. Any commercial loading of Black Powder in cartridges was ALWAYS done volumetrically, not with weighed charges, no different than dumping Smokeless powder today which is also done volumetrically.

Driftwood, my friend, this is true ... but the volumetric measure is actually calculated based on scale weight
And as for the density of various black powders, again the vendors don't tell us this, they vary. When it says 70grs volumetric for black powder as an example, in all cases you are not putting a true 70 grs of powder in the case because each varies as to density and will also vary by lot.
Density examples that I have determined:
Wt Vendor Grain
90.2 Goex Cartridge
91.2 DuPont FFg
91.9 KIK FFFg
94.1 Goex Cowboy
90.5 Goex FFg
94.4 Goex FFFg
92.5 Goex FFFg
91.6 Goex FFFg ... all the Goex FFFg's are different lots
94.4 Meteor FFg
97 Meteor FFFg
97.2 Goex Express FFg
97.8 Schuetzen FFFg
99.2 KIK FFg
102.3 Swiss FFFg
102.6 DuPont Fg
102.7 Skirmish Fg
104.4 Swiss 1.5
104.9 Swiss FFg
100 gr volume pan weighed

And due to the different densities, this is why all true BPCR shooters scale weigh their powder charges. And for a favorite lot of powder they used for loading data that shoots the eyes out of the center at 1000yds, when they run out of that lot ... they cry, unless they measure the density of the new lot and make adjustments accordingly

In summary, I agree with Fairshake. Though Winchester and UMC charged using 'volumetric' drop tubes in their machinery, the tubes were calculated based on scale weight as explained above. Folks may want to read this book, Cartridge Manufacturer - Machinery, Douglas T Hamilton, 1916 to see the words and machinery how cartridges were made and loaded. Very educational

Okie Dookie, we got it now? It's scale weight!

[Bryan Austin]

Its about time John Boy 

[rickk]

John Boy, I found the book... all 184 pages of it. Can you save me some eyestrain and point me to the pages that talk about using water as a reference rather than Black Powder?

This is an eye opener that I have never heard before.

Since it is possible to convert grains of water (at sea level, on the planet earth) directly into CC's without the use of a scale, then the implication is it is not a measure of weight at all, but that is truly is a measure of volume.


1 grain = 0.06479891 grams
15.432358 grains = 1 gram
1 gram = 1 cubic centimeter.
15.432358 grains per cc

I just checked the MSDS for several brands of black powder, and did not find the specific gravity listed on any of them. Even if I did, how would it be defined? As the solid "puck" before granulation probably? Anyway, it is very unlikely that if one poured 1cc of black powder that it would weigh 15.432358 grains, or anywhere near that. John Boys's data confirms that to be true.

John Boys table implies that the specific gravity is somewhere's around 1.286, and that it varies quite a bit.

So, it's got nothing to do with scale weight at all it seems.

John Boy, please point me to the page in the book to satisfy my curiosity !

Cuts Crooked, how is the popcorn supply holding up?

Rick

[Bryan Austin]

John Boy, I found the book... all 184 pages of it. Can you save me some eyestrain and point me to the pages that talk about using water as a reference rather than Black Powder?

This is an eye opener that I have never heard before.

Since it is possible to convert grains of water (at sea level, on the planet earth) directly into CC's without the use of a scale, then the implication is it is not a measure of weight at all, but that is truly is a measure of volume.


1 grain = 0.06479891 grams
15.432358 grains = 1 gram
1 gram = 1 cubic centimeter.
15.432358 grains per cc

I just checked the MSDS for several brands of black powder, and did not find the specific gravity listed on any of them. Even if I did, how would it be defined? As the solid "puck" before granulation probably? Anyway, it is very unlikely that if one poured 1cc of black powder that it would weigh 15.432358 grains, or anywhere near that. John Boys's data confirms that to be true.

John Boys table implies that the specific gravity is somewhere's around 1.286, and that it varies quite a bit.

So, it's got nothing to do with scale weight at all it seems.

John Boy, please point me to the page in the book to satisfy my curiosity !

Cuts Crooked, how is the popcorn supply holding up?

Rick

Simpley put for the highly uneducated public back in the 1870's.......44-40, 45-70...yadda yadda yadda....second number represents the amount of gunpowder used. Probably another indication that accuracy was not always perfect for the "in the  field" reloader....but enough to kill.
Good enough for me. 

[StrawHat]

Ah.... the old "volume/weight" discussion!

I'm gonna get some popcorn ready.  ...

Hey CC, I'm about ready for a sandwich, how about you?

[rickk]

Next week, having resolved this, can we talk about Drams?   

[Dick Dastardly]

Or, dram equivalents?

DD-DLoS