Black powder Measurement: by Weight or Volume

[Ranch 13]

What folks choose to do is one thing but what is fact is fact, what is original is original...everything else is just preference!  Does one really think a cowpuncher back in 1875, out on the trail, is gonna weigh a charge, compress a charge?
Yes if they used the supplied "follower" with the loading tools to compress the powder as the intructions indicated to do.
As far as that goes, what about C&B users....a flask right...is that not volume?
The spouts on the flasks were regulated to throw a specified grains weight charge
Heck, I don't remember what this topic was about anyway! But I guess the argument boils down to why weight or volume? Looks like John Boy posted those facts a few posts up about weight. Several old cartridges were dissected and found the powder was right on weight as well as compression referring to the type cartridge like 38-40, 44-40, 45-70. Maybe back in the days cartridges were somewhat new, powder density more reflected to a referenced charge. Maybe we may never know.
No we know alot about what was expected of powder charges. Sharps and Remington both pointed out how a variation in charge weight would affect the bullet drop. Winchester along with the other two were all pretty adoment about what powder charges and "F" size were to be used. Just takes a little bit of minor research to find

[john boy]

The spouts on the flasks were regulated to throw a specified grains weight charge

And there still are today.  So are the Lee Dippers and any other volumetric measures
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1071.pdf
The variances between charging with a volumetric measure and scale weight are:
* The density difference of the powder between different lots
* The size of the granulation if the volume charger is calibrated for FFg powder and the shooter uses FFFg or Fg 

[Bryan Austin]

And there still are today.  So are the Lee Dippers and any other volumetric measures
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1071.pdf
The variances between charging with a volumetric measure and scale weight are:
* The density difference of the powder between different lots
* The size of the granulation if the volume charger is calibrated for FFg powder and the shooter uses FFFg or Fg 

Thanks again John Boy!

[Ranch 13]

Well aside from the fact that lee says not to use any of their powder measuring devices for black....

The point still is that each of those powder dippers is intended to drop a certain grains weight charge of powder and they even took the time to go thru a gigantic list of powders to fill out the chart with...
But notice the chart says grains weight not volumes.....
  ???Where can I get a scale that reads out in volumes

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Well aside from the fact that lee says not to use any of their powder measuring devices for black....

The point still is that each of those powder dippers is intended to drop a certain grains weight charge of powder and they even took the time to go thru a gigantic list of powders to fill out the chart with...
But notice the chart says grains weight not volumes.....
  ???Where can I get a scale that reads out in volumes

Now, what does a dipper actually do?  It contains a given VOLUME, expressed in cc's, of powder or whatever.  What the chart does is provide an equivalency table showing the WEIGHT of that specified powder in that VOLUME measure. 

We are making all this entirely too complicated!

[Ranch 13]

 No it's not very complicated at all.
A dipper,or adjustable measure or the spout on a flask is designed to throw a powder charge of predetermined grains weight.
Pretty simple isn't it?
A quote from the 1878 Winchester catalog in their reloading instrcuttions.
"uses the utmost care in weighing his charge of powder and lead. Neglecting these points, no matter how finely the gun may be sighted, the reult will be wild shooting;"

[john boy]

No it's not very complicated at all.
A dipper,or adjustable measure or the spout on a flask is designed to throw a powder charge of predetermined grains weight.

Don, agree it is not complicated.  But explaining the theory is a mind boggle to many folks 

[Ranch 13]

 Smokeless shooters seem to be the ones that have the biggest problem grasping the concept....

[john boy]

I read this information in my new Guide that hopefully will bring the subject full circle:

Alliant Powder, Reloader's Guide
Powder Bushing Charts

...  charts of all the folks that sell bushings

A reloading scale is required to check the nominal weight of a powder charge

Powder bushings can vary in the charge weight they drop and could vary as much as several grains under certain conditions

Powder density, moisture content, and loading technique can cause a variation from the bushing weights listed on the charts.  Also, the loading machine vibration affects charge weights.  A complete loading cycle should be completed to assure an average powder charge weight.

The information in these tables has been supplied by the loading machine manufacturers or Alliant Powder and is not a reloading recommendation

Guess this would apply to Lee dippers too!  

And please ... just because original gunpowder (BP) is a weak powder, it does not negate the theory

[Ranch 13]

The bushings that came with my Lee loadall II don't come anywhere near close enough to what the chart says to feel safe about it. So I had to go thru the hassle of changing bushings and droping charges into the scale to get close enough. Shot shell reloading with smokeless is some scary business....

[Bryan Austin]

We are making all this entirely too complicated!

Nah, simply pruning a grape vine!

[Bryan Austin]

No it's not very complicated at all.
A dipper,or adjustable measure or the spout on a flask is designed to throw a powder charge of predetermined grains weight.
Pretty simple isn't it?
A quote from the 1878 Winchester catalog in their reloading instrcuttions.
"uses the utmost care in weighing his charge of powder and lead. Neglecting these points, no matter how finely the gun may be sighted, the reult will be wild shooting;"

Sweet, I do this with my 44-40s and 45s just because I want to! Its fun 

[Bryan Austin]

Need to check out a follower...is that the plug on the compression die ?! Sorry about the flask in volume, I knew better  

[Ranch 13]

Need to check out a follower...is that the plug on the compression die ?! Sorry about the flask in volume, I knew better  
[/quote

The follower in the old hand tools looked more like the innards of a lyman M die. The shank portion was as long as the factory figured it needed to be to seat the wad at the proper depth to allow for the lube disc (if used) and the bullet.
Resizing dies and press's handnot been invented at that time so that's why the droptube was important, to get the powder level low enough in the case so the follower could be pushed to full depth by hand. Drop tubes really not necessary with modern presses and compression dies.

[Bryan Austin]

Need to check out a follower...is that the plug on the compression die ?! Sorry about the flask in volume, I knew better  

The follower in the old hand tools looked more like the innards of a lyman M die. The shank portion was as long as the factory figured it needed to be to seat the wad at the proper depth to allow for the lube disc (if used) and the bullet.
Resizing dies and press's handnot been invented at that time so that's why the droptube was important, to get the powder level low enough in the case so the follower could be pushed to full depth by hand. Drop tubes really not necessary with modern presses and compression dies.

Son of a pig, ya learn something new every day!  

Are modern Lyman 310 dies like this?

[Wills Point Pete]

 Just remember one thing about black powder reloading: The great herds of Bison were wiped out by often illiterate men loading those Sharp's Everlasting cases by campfire-light, casting their bullets from those same buffalo dung campfires.

I grew up when a lot of land became lakes, we swarmed those old houses and line cabins before the water came, we got a lot of old ammo that was "junk" then, now, of course it's "collector's items". Along with a lot of old farm and ranching equipment now rusted away at the bottom of various lakes. If we'd only knew those modern values in the late fifties, early sixties we wouldn't be writing about powder, we'd be taking lots of viagra trying to keep up with the big hootered redheads with low morals.

Instead, though, we shot up all of that ammo we could, and tore down the rest. The factory black powder loads we tore down ranged from almost no compression to the powder packed so tight we had to pick it out, all the way to the case head. Some of that stuff, the primers didn't all work anymore. What I can say is there was no rhyme or reason that I could spot why a Peter's round was packed a lot tighter (or looser) than a UMC round of the same cartridge. Did it make a difference? Heck, with eighty year old priming, who knows? What I do know is that all those rounds shot well enough for major companies to package up and sell them on the then-frontier where having a surplus of ammo was wealth. The Apache and the Comanche made sure of that in my part of the country, along with feral whites. Other part of the country had other tribes, plus feral whites. This was a part of life, right up until the West was tamed and some are trying hard to return us to those days.

Still, when we talk about black powder loading, never forget those guys sitting at a buffalo dung campfire, casting bullets and loading those cartridges that wiped out the Bison herds.

[Bryan Austin]

Just remember one thing about black powder reloading: The great herds of Bison were wiped out by often illiterate men loading those Sharp's Everlasting cases by campfire-light, casting their bullets from those same buffalo dung campfires.

I grew up when a lot of land became lakes, we swarmed those old houses and line cabins before the water came, we got a lot of old ammo that was "junk" then, now, of course it's "collector's items". Along with a lot of old farm and ranching equipment now rusted away at the bottom of various lakes. If we'd only knew those modern values in the late fifties, early sixties we wouldn't be writing about powder, we'd be taking lots of viagra trying to keep up with the big hootered redheads with low morals.

Instead, though, we shot up all of that ammo we could, and tore down the rest. The factory black powder loads we tore down ranged from almost no compression to the powder packed so tight we had to pick it out, all the way to the case head. Some of that stuff, the primers didn't all work anymore. What I can say is there was no rhyme or reason that I could spot why a Peter's round was packed a lot tighter (or looser) than a UMC round of the same cartridge. Did it make a difference? Heck, with eighty year old priming, who knows? What I do know is that all those rounds shot well enough for major companies to package up and sell them on the then-frontier where having a surplus of ammo was wealth. The Apache and the Comanche made sure of that in my part of the country, along with feral whites. Other part of the country had other tribes, plus feral whites. This was a part of life, right up until the West was tamed and some are trying hard to return us to those days.

Still, when we talk about black powder loading, never forget those guys sitting at a buffalo dung campfire, casting bullets and loading those cartridges that wiped out the Bison herds.

That is the information I like to hear.

People just can't handle the truth any more. Too much suing going on to tell the truth when it comes to reloading or dang near everything else for that matter. If a person can only compress substitute powders a little, or none at all with 777, then so be it. But I want the truth with real honest black powder. You guys want the truth...lol...you can't handle the truth!

[Ranch 13]

I doubt many of them were illiterate. The ones that could afford sharps rifles, probably also bought the sharps reloading tools which included an apothecary scale.
There are many accounts of the young boys and wifes etc , that as part of the responsibilities of their camp tending job was to reload the empty cases from the day before..

[StrawHat]

...I doubt many of them were illiterate...

I agree, the West was populated by a variety of folk that mostly left the East or Mexico and moved to the open land.  Professors and school teachers often took whatever jobs provided money and several "well to do" sorts got well to do by hunting and trapping.  Same with mercenaries, during the Mexican revolutions many educated gringos went South for the adventure.  But that's a different topic.

[Fairshake]

 John Boy, I thank you for referring to my long on the box posting about this very subject. My reason for my posting is that I became upset over seeing a posting that said the dram on a shotshell box was referring to the speed of the shot. This person went on to say that BP was loaded by volume. If we allow this type of information to be printed by persons who have not done any research but are repeating what they have read or heard the future of our history is in trouble. The LOAD BY VOLUME was not ever in print until the advent of the sub powders. Even the buffalo hunters that loaded their rounds did so with a dipper that was calibrated with a scale. Look at any BP box of ammo and you will see a line that states loaded with 40 grains of powder, not black but just powder. 44-40 box would have that line,just as 45 Schofield might say loaded with 27 grains of powder. Show me a ammo box that said all ammo in this box was loaded by volume! As far as trying to make a statement that each can would be different that is true about many things and not just powder. The given about BP is that 39 grains will not act much different than 40 so there was some lee way. Our gun nomenclature has taken some hits over the years also. How many times have you heard a TV person or writer refer to a 45 ACP magazine as a clip or people go into a store and say I want to buy a box of bullets. If you were to give them a box of 250 grain lead bullets they would tell you that you don't know guns very well. You do know that they really wanted a box of ammo. If we don't care enough about our sport to say the correct way of doing things then how bad will the next shooters be. I am not trying to be picky or start the word police dept but how in the world can we teach the loading of BP if not do it by including the powder scale. It weighs both black and white. There are several BP shooting games that require a very precise loading. I shoot about three SASS matches a month and if you put enough powder in then you will for the most part hit the target. Although we have a 3ft x 3ft target at 7 yds that has been missed by shooters with revolvers and rifle. It seems impossible but I was a spotter and saw it. AS many posters have said this has been run until it's worn out but I bet a new member will ask with in a month, hey guys how much powder by volume do I load in my 45 Colts. As far as the Drams Equivalent goes it is almost gone just like the 2 3/4 is being replaced with 70mm