Black powder Measurement: by Weight or Volume

[Noz]

Naw! Drams are a measure of whiskey. That I understand and can talk about!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

MY OH MY!  A lot of answers to a question that no one asked

[Jefro]

Ah.... the old "volume/weight" discussion!

I'm gonna get some popcorn ready. 

Ah ha!! the old discussion Well for CAS I use volume cause it's so simple. For my cartridges I like about 1/16'' to 1/8'' compression using real BP. So I adjust my powder measure to throw that volume and then rock and roll with the progressive. For Shotshells I load the volume needed for a specific wad, usually less than a sqaure load. Find the Mec bushing that throws that volume then rock and roll. I do weight them as a point of record. Not all brands or lots of BP weight the same, so volume works for me. I use Schuetzen, which I have found weighs more then the same volume of the  Goex I had on hand. A couple of times when I have shared my shotshell recipe the fellers could not get the crimp to stay closed using Goex, since then I use CCs and weight of the brand when sharing. Once they backed off a couple of grains (the same cc) the load worked great. I'm sure for BPCR or silhouette shooters there is a need to weigh each charge, but not for CAS, IMHO. I didn't know there was a question where's the popcorn

Jefro

[Bryan Austin]

MY OH MY!  A lot of answers to a question that no one asked

Not as bad as the elite SASS forums. Usually over there the first few words are "For SASS or CAS.....". Seldom are any of my questions answered over there.

[john boy]

Rick, go to Wikipedia.  The answers are all there in many multiple topics.  I spent over 2 hours compiling the information chasing information from one topic to the next.  The data is on Wikipedia, not in any book using a volumetric measure to calculate powder DENSITY WEIGHT, which is the standard basis that black powder manufacturers use to calculate the density of their powder and has been used as a standard processing test for eons.  Along with the Closed Bomb test to determine the pressure of a given batch of powder and an evaporation test to determine the moisture content of a finished batch of powder.  I even provided you with WEIGHT densities of various powders using the same testing method that the manufacturers use.  I calculated these densities because they are not provided anywhere by the powder companies.  Same goes for nitro based powders except those densities calculated by the various article authors in Powder Propellants

A gram ... Originally defined as "the absolute weight of a volume of pure water equal to the cube of the hundredth part of a metre, and at the temperature of melting ice"[2] (later 4 °C), a gram is now defined as one one-thousandth of the SI base unit, the kilogram, or 1×10−3 kg, which itself is defined as being equal to the mass of a physical prototype preserved by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures.

John Boy, please point me to the page in the book to satisfy my curiosity !

No, I'm not your gopher.  The same with the Google digitized book, Cartridge Manufacturer - Machinery, Douglas T Hamilton, 1916 which I have in my Google Library and read previously, all 184 pages.  Great eduction, you might want to read it fully also.  There's other good information in the book too

Since it is possible to convert grains of water (at sea level, on the planet earth) directly into CC's without the use of a scale, then the implication is it is not a measure of weight at all, but that is truly is a measure of volume.

Wrong.  Go back and read my post how a gram, a unit of mass WEIGHT ... an avoirdupois measurement, was determined by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures.

I dam well knew that the Wire thread was going to be deleted because of the post some dude made with loading data.  So I saved my post on my computer.  Too much time putting it together. Same for the powder densities.  I spent HOURS doing the screen tests for the powders in my inventory
So you might spend a few minutes using your Google browser to find the same facts.  I did the homework and have provided you with all the key words to put in the browser search.  Okie Dookie?  Over and out related to your request!

PS, Dick is right on the button about dram equivalents, a determination of weight I explained in the post using a volumetric measure.  It was started by the British gun powder companies before smokeless and the basis for black powder charges for all loads to be used in specific firearm calibers, including shotguns.  Ever note, US shotshells have the word dram on smokeless powder boxes still?

[rickk]

John Boy,

I searched for every occurrence of the word "water" in the book and found nothing relevant. Since you referenced that particular book, I figured it was to be found in there.

Yes, I know the difference between Mass and Weight, which is why I specified the conditions of which the weighing should occur. There is no such thing as a Mass Scale, but weight and mass do have a relationship if the conditions under which things are weighed are specified. One has to consider this when switching back and forth between grains and CC's, as one has it's roots in weight and the other has it's roots in mass.

I thought that your logic was that manufacturers way back when decided that when they spoke of "Grains", that they were speaking of the volume occupied by so many "grains of water". If that can be substantiated via old and reputable text, that would be awesome as it would clarify so many mysteries.

Maybe I misunderstood where you were going with the reference to water.

Where did I go wrong?

[john boy]

Where did I go wrong?

Rick, look at the pictures of the  powder charging tubes.  They are the same as using a volumetric measure calibrated to drop the specific powder charge by weight by caliber.  This is why I referenced the book - the drop tubes on the machinery.
The question I had reading it was, 'did they recalibrate the charge when a different lot of powder was used, either lighter or heavier in density to put ie, 70grs in a 45-70?'  I believe not.  Why?  John Kort, a good friend, aka w30wfc or w44wcf, has dissected many original rounds and weighed the contained powder charge.  Some are a bit heavier and some lighter. And I haven't found any reference to this in other old books I've read

No, you won't find reference to water in the book.  OK, now read the book page by page.  It is a good read

[rickk]

OK... maybe I misunderstood where you were going...

If one could trace it all back to grains of water it would be like finding the missing link between apes and man. They could make a movies out of it I am sure.

It does seem to be so logical that there is a link there though. I need to try to find it.

[Cuts Crooked]

Time to make another batch of popcorn...this time with butter!

(You are welcome to imagine me seated before my 'puter with greasy face & fingers, being smug and entertained at the same time! )

[john boy]

If one could trace it all back to grains of water it would be like finding the missing link between apes and man. They could make a movies out of it I am sure.

I'll be your agent!

Evening Cuts ... no beer too? 

[rickk]

Beer is certainly important I believe.

[Cuts Crooked]

Nah! No beer with a good quality popcorn. I prefer a good semi sweet white wine Like Eidelweiss, vintage 2005, from the southern Iowa, Tassel Ridge Winery.

However, a hearty Rose' with hints of dark leather and strawberry, for the nose and palette will do fine in a pinch.

[Deadeye Dick]

CC,
That doesn't sound like a cowboy drink to me.  
Do you take it by the weight or by volume?
Deadeye Dick

[Bryan Austin]

John Kort, a good friend, aka w30wfc or w44wcf, has dissected many original rounds and weighed the contained powder charge.  Some are a bit heavier and some lighter. And I haven't found any reference to this in other old books I've read

Book after book after book is written by author after author after author that may...and I repeat...MAY...be republishing hear say on reloading cartridges rather than facts as john boy has quoted above. I like facts and sometimes just because its in a book does not mean its fact. Anyone can write a book now days.

Ya want facts? Disect original period cartridges like this:

CASE CAPACITIES
Based on testing I have done with both balloon head and modern .44-40 cases, a balloon head .44-40 case holds only 2 grs. more powder than a solid head one......not the 7 gr. difference as indicated in the article that John Boy kindly referenced.  

FACTORY COMPRESSION
10 vintage .44-40 b.p. cartridges that I dissected that contained 40 grs. of b.p. by weight, indicated that the factories used an average of .20" compression with 200 gr. bullets and .24" with 217 gr. bullets.  A density check of the powder that was contained in those cartridges showed that it was 5% greater than the Goex FFG I have on hand.  In other words, 38 grs. of Goex would fill the same space as the 40 grs. of b.p. used in those cartridges.

BALLISTICS
The vintage .44-40 cartridges above, reassembled but using modern primers averaged 1,285 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.  Add 15 f.p.s. for the velocity decay of the bullet by the time it reached the chronograph and the corrected muzzle velocity would be 1,300 f.p.s. which compares nicely with vintage .44-40 factory ballistics.

.44-40 B.P. PRESSURE
Some data printed in 1927 shows a factory .44-40 b.p. load @ 15,000 p.s.i.  According to Hodgdon, Pyrodex will give similar pressures / ballistics to b.p. They show a .44-40 handgun load using Pyrodex ....943 f.p.s / 12,700 CUP.   Add 300 f.p.s. for a 24" rifle and that would be close to 1,250 f.p.s.  If your load produces less velocity, then the pressures would be less.    As we know, different brands of b.p. have different ballistic strengths and thus would give different ballistics / pressures at the same volume.  

w44wcf

link: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6267.15 reply post #21

Now as you can see this was posted in one of my topics questioning BP cartridge loading for the 44-40. I was riticuled on this forum as well as the SASS forum for asking... demanding facts instead of listing to the many "go read the books" flooding from the mouths of the ignorant. Sometimes the answer just isn't in books yet! All I had to do was purchase some period cartridges and disect them myself but I never thought of it.....go figure! 

[Ranch 13]

The Sharps catalog tells that you should use an apothecary scale to accurately measure your charges and also explained on how to convert apothecary weights to grains.....

[Bryan Austin]

The Sharps catalog tells that you should use an apothecary scale to accurately measure your charges and also explained on how to convert apothecary weights to grains.....

Great, now I gotta go learn something else! 

[Cuts Crooked]

CC,
That doesn't sound like a cowboy drink to me.  
Do you take it by the weight or by volume?
Deadeye Dick

Certainly! Cuts is a successful rancher/investor/gambler...not a common saddle tramp!

And it's by the carafe!  

(I really don' know jack schmidt about wine, but I do like it better 'n most beers)
http://www.tasselridge.com/wines.htm

[rickk]

If nothing else is clear from this, the one thing that I am seeing is that if a load is being discussed, the information is incomplete unless way more information is given than quantity of powder and granulation.

Brand matters, method of measurement matters. If measurement is done by volume there is a possible variation introduced by measurement technique.

If one wants to go deeper into the weight verses mass thing (grains are a unit of mass, not weight), the height above sea level when you weight it (or planet that you did it on) needs to be at least considered, but I'll put that one waaaaay down on my list of things to worry about for this weekend.

Also, I just had something pointed out to be on another board... a balance beam type of scale is self-correcting for variations in gravity while a spring scale or strain gauge scale is not. So in essence, a beam scale that measures grains truly is measuring mass, while a spring or strain gauge scale is only measuring weight.

[Bryan Austin]

Whatever it is, it looks like back in the day, Black Powder density is more than it is today making weight more pliable then than it does today.

Got any old pre 1900 cartridges laying around? Open one or two or ten up and weigh the charges.

[Ranch 13]

Black powder is hydroscopic, so the relative humidity can affect the grains weight of a charge of powder wether dumped from a powder thrower or a measure of some kind.
Also the brand is important. Swiss and Shuetzen 2 f is closer to kernel size of Goex 3f. Swiss 1.5 f is about the same size as Goex 2f, so it's best to keep that in mind when someone is talking about using x grains of this powder or that, because if you're not shooting the same brand there will be a difference in volume taken up in the case.