44 Colt

[Bryan Austin]

Just wondering if anyone out there uses a nominal .451" bullet with a heel diameter of .429. I don't even have a 44 Colt but was just curious!

[Flint]

The loading you describe is for the original Colts, but modern loading and currently made revolvers are barrelled for 429/430 bullets.  If you find an older gun, you would have to check the bore (and use black powder).  The interim loading was a hollow base 429 made to expand in the older 45 bore..

[Bryan Austin]

The loading you describe is for the original Colts, but modern loading and currently made revolvers are barrelled for 429/430 bullets.  If you find an older gun, you would have to check the bore (and use black powder).  The interim loading was a hollow base 429 made to expand in the older 45 bore..

That is correct, now is there anyone out there that shoots an original or repro that has been made to shoot said bullets?

[pony express]

I think Hoof Hearted likes to play with things like that, Somebody here(maybe him also) has modified a Henry or 1866 to shoot a cartridge like that, too, trying to get as close as possible to a .44 henry.

[Bryan Austin]

I think Hoof Hearted likes to play with things like that, Somebody here(maybe him also) has modified a Henry or 1866 to shoot a cartridge like that, too, trying to get as close as possible to a .44 henry.

I am searching forums and posts not trying to see exactly what the new 44 Colt cartridge is made up of. Is it simply a 44 Special Cartridge with a 44 Colt head stamp?

I don't want an old version of the 44 Colt but I'd like to have a new 44 Colt cartridge powered 66 Winchester 

[Abilene]

Howdy Jack.  The modern .44 Colt brass is about 1/16" shorter than .44 Spcl, and the rim is slightly smaller diameter than the Spcl, so it uses a different shell holder.  And of course the modern version uses the same .429 bullets as the Spcl.  Most .44 Spcl 1866 and 1873 rifles will function fine with the .44 Colt as long as you don't load it too short.  Occasionally the extractor needs to be tweaked to handle the smaller rim.

[litl rooster]

Howdy Jack.  The modern .44 Colt brass is about 1/16" shorter than .44 Spcl, and the rim is slightly smaller diameter than the Spcl, so it uses a different shell holder.  And of course the modern version uses the same .429 bullets as the Spcl.  

Abilene is correct on the brass.

Heeled bullets are available. By my posting this link, I don't want anyone to think I am endorsing their probucts. I just run across it the other day looking for something else

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=203349224

[Bryan Austin]

Thanks Guys!

[Grapeshot]

Just wondering if anyone out there uses a nominal .451" bullet with a heel diameter of .429. I don't even have a 44 Colt but was just curious!

Kenny Howell of R&D used to convert Reproduction 1860 Colt Armies and Remington New Model Armies to .44 Colt that used a rebated/heeled bullet.  I saw one of his conversion and it was top notch.  He also offerd an option to reline the barrels to .430 for anyone who wanted to use the standard .430 inch bullet that was used in the .44 Russian/Special.

[Mako]

Hey Savvy,
Have you ever seen this old thread?

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24202.msg315169.html#msg315169

Hoof Hearted was showing us how he crimped his heel based bullets in  .44 Colt.

It's very informative and there are references there to where you can get dies for both bullets, lubing and crimping.  Bernie Rowles has everything you need if you're considering doing it.

I'm thinking about getting everything I need even though I don't have a need for it this instant.  It seems once I decide to do a project you can't get the necessary materials any longer.  I have a virgin pair of '60s that are slated for conversions some day.  I have Uberti Type IIs, but they are not authentic in size and they stretch my holsters.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD?)

[Bryan Austin]

Hey Savvy,
Have you ever seen this old thread?

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24202.msg315169.html#msg315169

Hoof Hearted was showing us how he crimped his heel based bullets in  .44 Colt.

It's very informative and there are references there to where you can get dies for both bullets, lubing and crimping.  Bernie Rowles has everything you need if you're considering doing it.

I'm thinking about getting everything I need even though I don't have a need for it this instant.  It seems once I decide to do a project you can't get the necessary materials any longer.  I have a virgin pair of '60s that are slated for conversions some day.  I have Uberti Type IIs, but they are not authentic in size and they stretch my holsters.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD?)

I swear you guys are gonna make me buy everything I need and I ain't got no "44" Revolver...

[Mako]

I swear you guys are gonna make me buy everything I need and I ain't got no "44" Revolver...

Well quit swishing around in that frock and put on a pair of britches MAN!  A man without a .44...well he's, he's sumthin'.

I would just ask myself "what would Bruce do?" and make the plunge.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

[Bryan Austin]

Well quit swishing around in that frock and put on a pair of britches MAN!  A man without a .44...well he's, he's sumthin'.

I would just ask myself "what would Bruce do?" and make the plunge.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

I'd like to have a near authentic replica 1860 Army .44 Colt conversion that literally will chamber and shoot the .451 heeled bullet along with an 1866 Winchester that "was modified in the field" to shoot the same cartridge. For cowboy shooting that would be great but for me, it just isn't cost effective 

[StrawHat]

Savvy Jack,

Here is my Richards cahmbered for the 44 Colt.  Mine uses the 430 diameter bullet.  It is sharing the spotlight with another conversion, a field built 50-70 rifle.



Both are from the same era and are a hoot to shoot.  Even if you can't find one that takes the .451, I recommend you get a 44 Colt!

[Bryan Austin]

Strawhat thats just nice! I like them 

[pony express]

A bit OT, but tell me about that 50-70, Strawhat!

[StrawHat]

A bit OT, but tell me about that 50-70, Strawhat!

Savvy Jack, it's your thread, Want me to start another thread or carry on here?

[Bryan Austin]

Savvy Jack, it's your thread, Want me to start another thread or carry on here?

Thats fine, carry onward!

[StrawHat]

Thats fine, carry onward!

Okay, the 50-70 was just a barreled action when I found it.  Scrounging through my Pops garage (looking for tools I loaned him) I came across what I thought to be a pipe, perfect for a new pipe clamp!  Pulled it out of the pile and saw I had a trapdoor barrel and action, even better!  I grabbed a 45 ACP round and used it to see if I needed to rework the crown.  Boy was I surprised when the round slipped all the way to the breech.  Turns out instead of a 45-70, I had a 50-70 and one stamped 1866 on the trapdoor.  Being an amatuer hsitorian, I figure to restore it to it's original configuration and after years of searching realize my meager funds will not allow me to do this.  A friend of mine asks how the 50-70s were originally built.  "...I thought you would have known...muskets left over from the CW...machined, sleeved..." in short I made a rather big fool of myself as his response was, why don't you do the same and use musket parts for what you don't have?  Trying to save face I shot back with, "...because they cost as much as the parts..." whereupon he silences me with "...don't the Italians make copies of the CW muskets..."  Damn, I hate having smart friends.  So my quest for a replica 1861 musket gets underway and it is not as easy as some would think.  Being cheap frugal, I am looking for a used one preferably with a damaged barrel.  For two more years nothing is found until I am in the local gunshop and the owner asks if I have found my musket yet?  When I tell him no he hands me a busted musket!  A quick glance and I see it is a Zouave with a banged up barrel.  I am looking for an 1861 BUT this one might be made to work.  We strike a deal and I have my project.  Something keeps nagging at me about the musket and when I get it on the bench I realize it is not a Zouave but an 1841 Mississippi rifle.  The barrel was not cleaned and there was some rust on the surface but cleaned right up.  I stripped it down to parts and laid the trapdoor in place.  The Italians used a larger diameter barrel (nearly 1/8") so I glass bedded the barrel to fill up the spaces.  The trapdoor tang was shorter than the Italian one so I fitted a dutchman to the stock.  The lock was the hardest part of the equation.  On the 61, the locking cam fit into the recess of the nipple and bolster, the 1841 used a different lock geometry but a little work with my portable hand held miniature milling machine and all was well.  There were no sights on the barrel so I dug through my parts and came up with a set and fixed them to the barrel.  The hammer needed to be adjusted to hit the firing pin but being cast, I did not want to try bending it as much as it needed to be bent.  So I cut off the nose and pinned a piece of hex stock in place before soldering it for a permanet fix.  I hogged out an area on the bottom to clear the cam.  I did not care for the finish (or lack thereof) on the wood so I stripped it and refinished it with stain, shellac, oil and wax.  (Still not 100% satisfied so it might get redone again.)  I also did a quick tune on the lock.  

That was the mechcanical part.  Now for reloading.  Starline brass, large rifle primers, a caseful of ffG powder, and a 450 grain Lee bullet.  About 8 shots and the sights were filed where I needed them to be.  

All in all a fun project and within the realm of a frontier fix so I feel comfortable carrying it as a hysterically correct piece.  As you can tell, it gets paired up with the Richards conversion revolver.

Here is a long shot of the pair.



Since the photo, I have succeeded in breaking the front band spring and looking for a replacement.

Additional note,  before I started the "restoration" I visited with Al Frasca   (   http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/   ) and showed him what I had.  After a quick glance, he explained how the muskets were modified, how they were used, when they were decommisioned, and that the one I owned had made a trip to Banneremans Island where it was shortened and restocked.  From there it may have been sold to a foreign country or to an American settler.  If you ever need to research a trapdoor, get in touch with him.  He also showed me several pristine samples of the 1866!  And the 1865 and the 1868!  A very knowledgable fellow with an outstanding collection.

[pony express]

That's quite an interesting rifle you have, there. I was wondering if you started with a whole barrelled action, or if it went as far as adding a breechblock to a replica musket. But I might have had a hard time getting myself to convert a Missippi rifle, that's my favorite among the military replicas.(wish I could afford one)

I remember waaaayyyy back when I was younger, they used to sell kits to convert a trapdoor 45-70 to a .45 cal muzzle loader. New barrell that fit in the origional stock, maybe a different hammer, too. Wonder how many of those converted rifles are floating around still, worth about a fourth what it would if un-molested!