Horn/McQueen '76?

[Mossyrock]

Gents,

OK, I have done a search and come up dry.  Does anyone have any good, clear pics of the '76 Steve McQueen used in "Tom Horn"?  I am specifically interested in the sling swivel set up.  Gracias.

[James Hunt]

Probably not clear enough for you, but I had this image on my laptop - one of my favorite Hollywood cowboy images.



Neither the hat nor the gun had anything to do with the historical Horn.

[TomBullweed]

I have loaned out my copy, but Dennis Adler's 'Guns of the West' has photos of Tom Horn's real guns and other stuff.
I do not remember if his '76 had swivels or not, not that Hollywood would make an effort to match the real thing.

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings my Dear Mossyrock -

I offer you the link to the Tom Horn page from our good friends at the IMFDB aka the Internet Movie Firearms Database:
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Tom_Horn

only one image of each but it ought to give you a start. We can see that McQueen's rifle did sport a sling loop on the stock, and also that lyman style peep on the odd-ball riser block. I have never seen such a block before or since, and it has been a mystery to me.

yhs
Prof Marvel

[hawkeye2]

     The rear sight (not the tang sight) looks too "blocky" to be an evelator sight.  An express sight?  I wish there were some detailed photos avaliable.  Another odity, clearly there is no front sling swivel.

[Mossyrock]

       Another odity, clearly there is no front sling swivel.

Exactly!  It seems that I have seen a good, clear pic of this rifle that showed a rear AND front swivel, but I'll be darned if I can find it.

[Buck Stinson]

See if you can get in touch with OKDEE somewhere here in the '76 forum.  He just added original style sling swivels to his '76.  He can probably help.  Remember, this was a Hollywood movie and anything that appears to be real, probably isn't.  James Hunt hit the nail on the head when he wrote under the photo he posted, "Neither the hat nor the gunhad anything to do with the historical Horn."

[Joe Lansing]

    The front swivel on the '76 in the McQueen picture , and on the Tom horn link appears to be on the magazine tube about midway between the nosecap and the muzzle.

                                                              J.L.

[hawkeye2]

     There seems to be something around the mag tube about half way between the fore end cap and the end of the tube and I could believe the loop was trimmed off when the photo was cropped but I can't see evidence of a swivel in the two photos below.  If it were put on at the factory, which it may not have been, I believe it would be on the bottom of the fore end cap.

[Buck Stinson]

Original factory sling attachments for the 1873, 1876 and most other earlier Winchester rifles, were sling loops attached to the nose cap of the forend and inletted into the buttstock.   The standard mounting position on the buttstock was 4" up from the toe of the buttplate.  This swivel was a solid base with the loop attached.  The swivel loop on the nose cap was drilled dead center in the bottom of the cap and fastened with a rivet burr in such a manner that it actually allowed the sling loop to turn freely on the bottom of the nose cap.  OKDEE recently mounted original style sling swivels to his '76 and posted pictures.   Check out the heading "Got an Original Winchester 1876--share pics."  Go to page 5, post #106.   Any other type of sling swivels you might see on an early Winchester rifle are most likely not factory original.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

In the movie... Tom Horn, the riflle that Steve McQueen was shown with was not a 45-60 like he states he uses when asked by the lowly sheriff. The rifle is a 45-75 in movie serial number 22700 and it was manufactored in 1882. It was the real thing not a reproduction model. The rifle that McQueen used is owned by Long Mountain Outfitters  http://www.longmountain.com/just-for-fun/movie-guns/TomHorn/. You can see a picture of the rifle and the UNUSUAL Tang Sight.  The movie was good but it was NOT FACTUAL in regards to when Tom Horn went to Wyoming and the way he conducted his business as a Stock Detective. In real life Horn preferred the 1894 Winchester 30-30 for his work. I have spent much time researching my ALIAS. One thing for sure... Horn was very effective in his business. I liked the movie even though it is more HOLLYWOOD than historical. To this day in Wyoming the name Tom Horn still evokes heated arguments on the subject of did he kill the Nichols boy. They had a retrial back in the early 80s using the documents from the first trial and Horn was found innocent, but it was all for naught... he was still hung the day before his 43rd birthday in 1903.

"If I made that shot, it was the best shot I ever made, and, the dirtiest trick I ever did" .

[john boy]

You can see a picture of the rifle and the UNUSUAL Tang Sight.

The tang sight is not unusual, it's the base that it is mounted on ... and not a new concept
OK, I got a tang sight that is not high enough to have elevation over the high receiver.  So, I modify the tang staff and add a block with a square post to the bottom.  Then I fabricate a block that the post fits into with a tension screw so the tang can be removed.  The block is attached to the tang by screws but usually welded to it as a built up tang for the '76.  Put the tang into the block and shim it with silver solder to make it level and eliminate the 'fuzzies'

This concept is standard on German & Swiss Aydt Schuetzen rifles with a Suhl disc diopter instead of the tang peep sight

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

John Boy now that is a sight (smile). Ifn you watch the movie Tom Horn, Steve McQueen where he is sighting the lever rifle '76 in and he puts the BLOCK with the Tang Sight attached... one will notice that the BLOCK is DOVETAILED as you can see him slide the block with the Tang attached onto the slotted dovetail attached to the rifle. The Tang and the Block on his rifle in the movie... I called "unusual" as I have never seen one attached in that manner. In the movie he does not have a sling attached to the rifle, but the rifle does have a sling swivel on the stock. Interesting note: I will have to look for it on the web, after Horn's hanging, John Coble kept the 1876 Winchester. I think that rifle is in the Wyoming Historical Society but I could be wrong, have to check. Horn's 1876 had a leather sling and it was only looped around the barrel, and his name is on the sling as I recall. I will find and post. But from a HISTORICAL point of view, Horn's favorite rifle was the 1894 Winchester in 30-30 caliber. Interesting post on LEVERGUNS titled "Tom Horn's Rifles" by D.L. Staley. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/staley/tom_horn.htm.

If I made that shot, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Here is a picture of Tom Horn's 1876 Winchester 45-60. History buffs and Historical Society folks think this rifle was his. Found in the buttstock wrapped around the sectioned cleaning rod was an envelope of the Wyoming Stock Growers Association upon which, written in pencil, are the lyrics to "Life's Railroad to Heaven" (the hymn sung at Horn's hanging) and signed G.M. Kimmell.
G.M Kimmell was the school marm that Horn had eyes for. You will notice that this rifle DOES NOT HAVE A SLING SWIVEL on the stock. Me thinks that was Hollywood. But I did read somewhere that McQueen did not want to use a "reproduction model 1876" in the movie. So they used the real thing see above.

[shrapnel]

It shouldn't be hard to view a Tom Horn gun. Whenever I am at a gun show in Wyoming I usually see at least 6 or 8 guns he owned...

[R.T. Rangebum]

Shrapnel,

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there! I imagine in Wyoming every other rifle for sale belonged to Tom Horn.

[Coal Creek Griff]

Isn't there a bar in NM that proudly displays a gun that did NOT belong to Billy the Kid?  Rare indeed.  I have a rare non-Tom Horn gun...

[Skyrider]

Greetings Gents!

           I was told when I was a young boy, that Tom Horn used an 1876 in the caliber known as the 44-40! I don't know if that is true but an old man, who lived next door to us in 1950 and who was a Cowboy from Wyoming, stated that to my father. He also used to sing great Western songs on his guitar to us kids. Tall skinny man with a big 10-gallon hat, cowboy boots and handle bar mustache.

[Jubal Wilson]

Buck said:
See if you can get in touch with OKDEE somewhere here in the '76 forum.  He just added original style sling swivels to his '76.  He can probably help.  Remember, this was a Hollywood movie and anything that appears to be real, probably isn't.  James Hunt hit the nail on the head when he wrote under the photo he posted, "Neither the hat nor the gunhad anything to do with the historical Horn."
I just went there and the pictures are gone . Maybe someone can get them back.
Jubal

[OD*]

Greetings Gents!

           I was told when I was a young boy, that Tom Horn used an 1876 in the caliber known as the 44-40! I don't know if that is true but an old man, who lived next door to us in 1950 and who was a Cowboy from Wyoming, stated that to my father. He also used to sing great Western songs on his guitar to us kids. Tall skinny man with a big 10-gallon hat, cowboy boots and handle bar mustache.

You can be pretty certain Horn didn't use an 1876 chambered in 44/40 (44WCF), Winchester didn't chamber them in 44/40.